From: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 2509
Date: Monday, March 07, 2005 8:34 PM


There are 17 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Air Conditioning
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

2. Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

3. Re: Air Conditioning
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com

4. Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>

5. Re: Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please
From: "Bruce Benson" <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>

6. RE: Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>

7. Dumping a bunch of DeLorean Engine parts
From: "Matt Spittle" <supermatty_at_dml_psu.edu>

8. Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>

9. Re: Celebrating the Irish
From: Shannon Yocom <ssdelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>

10. Re: 1 Year Anniversary...and a message of hope!
From: "sweitzel_2000" <sweitzel_at_dml_lffltd.com>

11. Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>

12. Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>

13. Re: Air Conditioning
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>

14. Re: PRV Performance
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>

15. Re: Air Conditioning
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

16. PRV Performance / 6 Speed trans
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>

17. Re: Digest Number 2508
From: Dan Haney <DRHANEY_at_dml_peoplepc.com>





Message: 1
Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:41:31 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Air Conditioning



If you still have the origional R-12 freon and the A/C works there is
nothing you need to do. If you do not have enough Freon in the system
to make it work now you DO need to do something. If there is much
positive pressure, just a low charge of Freon then the "best" advice
would be to find the leak, remove the R-12, fix the leak, change the
oil in the compressor, and refill with the R-12 topping off with more
R-12. Unfortunatly many shops will no longer recharge a system with
R-12. They won't keep it around because it is too expensive. In that
case they will recycle the old R-12 and fill your system with a
drop-in replacement. R-134a is not recomended for the system. You will
lose around 10% of your cooling capacity and run much higher
pressures. It is also incompatible with the seals and the origional
oil fill so you should disassemble and purge all of the old oil and
replace every seal and gasket. A/C work is not a job for the garage
mechanic anymore. You are supposed to have a license to do this stuff
and the equipment is expensive. It is much more cost effective to take
the car to a shop for the rare times you need to have A/C work done.
If done properly by a competant shop you should never have to go again
for that system unless a hose bursts. There is no "average" price
since there is no "average" job. It varies greatly depending on where
in the country you are, if parts are required, how contaminated the
system is, etc. That said this work is not cheap because the equipment
to do it properly and the time it takes costs a lot. Anything less
than $100 and they are just squirting in something to get you out the
door with a little cool air. Not the best way to go. The best way to
find a good shop is by word-of-mouth. In any large city there is at
least 1 shop everyone will know by reputation, not price. That is the
one to use.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757 


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Todd Nelson <tan5732_at_dml_r...> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I assume this will be a relatively simple question to answer as most
of you have had to do this at some time or another.  My question is,
what is involved with restoring the air conditioning system.  I'm
guessing you would have to dispose of the old R12 Freon and switch to
134A, right?  Does that mean a new compressor?  My guess is this is
not something the average home mechanic could do, given the disposal
of Freon and recharging, etc.  What's the average cost, I know there
are many factors, but a general figure will do.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Todd
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:53:03 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please



Any properly running IC engine is going to run hot. Hot is not around
200-220 degrees F. Hot would be 240-250. Of course you will burn your
finger touching it at that temp. A painful way to measure temp IMHO.
Much easier on your fingers to use one of those new-fangled infra-red
non-contact temperature gauges. There are hotter spots. Around the
exhaust pipes for instance. BTW check out the wire that goes to the
oil sender on the left (port) side. Usually when I look at them they
are "Crispy Critters"! As for the alternator, the temp affects output
more than life. As the temp increases the resistance of the wiring
inside increases reducing total available output. The engine bay on a
Delorean isn't that much hotter than most cars. If it is maybe you
have exhaust leaks or your cooling fans are coming on too late. A
Delorean is one of the few cars I know that has the catalytic
converter AND the muffler in the engine bay! Most like this are
air-cooled like the old VW bug. Now they get HOT!
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_g...> wrote:
> 
> 
> You're exactly right, I'm not sure why I thought these had bad air
> flow, I guess I was just thinking the louvers would keep air from
> flowing into the bay. I never thought it was that horrible, just not
> great. I've been running my engine for years with no heat shields
> anywhere and I don't have any problems-no warped parts, no melted
> wires, none of that-so I should have studied the design and flow a
>








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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:15:51 EST
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Air Conditioning


In a message dated 3/6/05 5:21:08 PM Central Standard Time, tan5732_at_dml_rit.edu 
writes:


> Hello,
> 
> I assume this will be a relatively simple question to answer as most of you 
> have had to do this at some time or another.  My question is, what is 
> involved with restoring the air conditioning system.  I'm guessing you would have to 
> dispose of the old R12 Freon and switch to 134A, right?  Does that mean a 
> new compressor?  My guess is this is not something the average home mechanic 
> could do, given the disposal of Freon and recharging, etc.  What's the average 
> cost, I know there are many factors, but a general figure will do.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Todd

Todd,

It is possible to convert fairly cheaply but it may not last long, as in you 
may need to recharge it every other year or so.  what they will do is replace 
the service ports on the compressor, drain the oil, vacuum the system down for 
hopefully an hour or more, then make sure it can hold a vacuum. that will 
tell you if you have any leaks.  if not, they will recharge the system with R134A 
and test it out.  I have done this before and the A/C works great, don't 
worry about it not being powerful enough.  It's so cold you will be running with 
it on the lowest fan speed all the time once the cabin has cooled down.

Others will tell you to replace a bunch of O-rings and such, and if you 
really want to do it 'right' you should, but I have found that it's more cost 
effective just to recharge every other year.  At least until I do a total system 
replacement.... the way it is right now at least gets me thru the summers. I 
think it cost me about $90 to do it each time. 

Andy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:14:06 -0000
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Rick" <rdevaux_at_dml_t...> wrote:
> 
> Is there a way to modify the warm up regulator so that it acts like
a rising rate pressure regulator?

Sure. You can also change the CPR's limits by changing the position of
the plug. You can even make it externally adjustable if you want. But
as I mentioned, mixture control using CP isn't very elegant nor does
it work as well as doing it via the FV. After all, Bosch chose to do
it that way and they know something about lambda control: they
invented the O2S. And as Mr Kuchan pointed out, the stock K Jet has
more than enough headroom for normal driving. In fact it has enough
dynamic range through the lambda alone for mild boost without
resorting to diddling control pressure.

David T point out that messing with this stuff won't get you much more
fuel (he said 10% as I recall) and suggested you go with a better
system. I'm in complete agreement with him because the K Jet is lame
past a certain point and not all that capable for mods to begin with. 
It is does however provide a pretty decent job of maintaining a lambda
of 1 during most conditions assuming you don't get too crazy and 
assuming the basic mixture is set within it's operating range.

Having said that it's important to remember it's not how much fuel you
deliver per say, it's what that fuel does to the mixture. Plus A/F
ratio is affected by other things than fuel metering. Remember, there
is the  "A" part of the A/F equation and I remind you there are 6
"engines" in your car, not one. Without a balanced induction system
there is a way to cheat and get equal mixture across all cylinders for
best performance: you need to alter each injector after measuring EGT
at each cylinder. This isn't theory, it's done all the time in other
applications and I had an instrument that did just that on my car. The
problem is it's not easy to do with Bosch injectors but if you're on a
mission for the smoothest running engine you'll ever see it can be
done.

I've spend many hours doing A/F anaylsis on Deloreans while repairing
them and researching it's K Jet for mods. I can tell you the exact
effects of mixture changes on anything from removing the dipstick to
WOT manipulation of the FV to using the manual enrichment inputs, both
the WOT one and the normally unused input that Volvo later used to
ditch the crappy accel vacuum enrichment of the 066 CPR. Why you'd
want to add that is beyond me. What form of cold accel enrichment does
the car have now?

In the Delo's case you can run the K Jet in excess of 10% CO (the
limits of most NDIR analyzers) at almost any point. That's way richer
than you'd need for most most cases and I'm talking about only the
lambda, with control pressure maxed out. Diddle it or primary pressure
and you can get more. You're going to eventually run into the limits
on other things (the fuel distributor for example) but for the mods
you're talking about using the lambda either in open or closed loop
(shifted rich or left at stoich) will deliver plenty of fuel.

Continous mechanical injection systems are old technolgy and well
understood. Reliable too, they're used on 99% of the world's
certificated piston powered aircraft. Heck, even turbine engines use
them. They suck at doing certain things though, one of which is tight
mixture control.

I don't know (exactly) what DMCH does to it's engine but it's not
rocket science. As Mr Bill points out the B28 in foreign trim is not
rated at 130 HP and you'd be nuts to think any 3 liter engine is
inherently stuck at that by design. I'm assuming it's much of what
you're suggesting: increasing volumetric efficiency (while remaining
normally aspirated) and tuning to match it. Nor do I know what Martin
does but he's a pretty sharp bloke so I believe him when he says it
works. As I said, rocket science it's not. You just have to have lots
of patience and the test gear to tune after making changes. A dyno
helps but you can get away without using  one. 

I know one thing though: neither of them stood a chance of getting any
of my money for it. Martin is OK but Mr Esprey had the balls to whine
back when I posted anonomously, then he goes ahead and posts under a
fictious name solely for personal financial gain. Maximum hypocrisy,
minimum ethics. Then he doesn't even bother to apologize for biting
the hand of the people who feed him, many whom go on to feel he did
nothing wrong. Lol, D owners are a powerfully queer lot...but that's a
topic for another time.

Greg (or Gary, Sonny, Donny...I've been called much worse).








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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:14:21 -0700
From: "Bruce Benson" <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please


I can agree with much of this but one of the surprises I've encountered in
life was near the end of my days with Ford. Several of us had the
opportunity to spend two twelve hour weekend days playing and learning with
certain engine builders about NASCAR engines and how they tune this
"antiquated" technology. NASCAR specifies carburated engines. One would
think after all these years that this would be a science that's long been a
slam dunk. Wrong. They keep learning all the time. Granted much of this is
finding ways to cheat on the rules established by NASCAR but beyond that
this old technology is constantly finding better ways to skin cats. I won't
ever say that something is etched in stone and forget trying to find some
way to improve on it. A few things brought to my attention at this NASCAR
weekend went against much of what I belived. I guess there is a point where
one should say " this is as far as we can go" but after talking and
listening to the NASCAR engine builders I'd say go back to the drawing board
and squeeze something else out of it.

Bruce Benson

> I don't know (exactly) what DMCH does to it's engine but it's not
> rocket science. As Mr Bill points out the B28 in foreign trim is not
> rated at 130 HP and you'd be nuts to think any 3 liter engine is
> inherently stuck at that by design. I'm assuming it's much of what
> you're suggesting: increasing volumetric efficiency (while remaining
> normally aspirated) and tuning to match it. Nor do I know what Martin
> does but he's a pretty sharp bloke so I believe him when he says it
> works. As I said, rocket science it's not. You just have to have lots
> of patience and the test gear to tune after making changes. A dyno
> helps but you can get away without using  one.
>






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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:53:42 -0600
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>
Subject: RE: Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please


Just one more point on the fuel distributor. It can be modified to flow all
the fuel you need and then some. We can make it run out the tail pipe if you
want it.
John Hervey


-----Original Message-----
From: endotex23 [mailto:endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 5:14 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please





--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Rick" <rdevaux_at_dml_t...> wrote:
>
> Is there a way to modify the warm up regulator so that it acts like
a rising rate pressure regulator?

Sure. You can also change the CPR's limits by changing the position of
the plug. You can even make it externally adjustable if you want. But
as I mentioned, mixture control using CP isn't very elegant nor does
it work as well as doing it via the FV. After all, Bosch chose to do
it that way and they know something about lambda control: they
invented the O2S. And as Mr Kuchan pointed out, the stock K Jet has
more than enough headroom for normal driving. In fact it has enough
dynamic range through the lambda alone for mild boost without
resorting to diddling control pressure.





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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 00:53:01 -0000
From: "Matt Spittle" <supermatty_at_dml_psu.edu>
Subject: Dumping a bunch of DeLorean Engine parts



Group,

Since I'll be migrating to different engine, I'm dumping all of my 
PRV stuff.  The car only had 27,000 miles on it, and I've listed 
most of the stuff I think people would want on E-bay.  Just do a 
search by seller for 'going88mph.'  All of the stuff is in real good 
shape, and I took pictures of everything and tried to describe it as 
best as possible.  If any of you need any other parts from the 
engine that I haven't listed, feel free to contact me via e-mail. 

BTW you can even get a "Bill Robertson exhaust kit!'  

thanks,

Matt
#1604








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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 18:47:22 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Martin Gutkowski <martin_at_dml_d...> wrote:
<SNIP>
My own car, #1458 was one of 
> three "test cars" which basically got secondhand parts thrown at 
it. My 
> car gained considerably in torque and truly made it a quick car 
that's a 
> lot of fun to drive. 
<SNIP>
> Because it's business, I'm not about to go and tell everyone how to 
do 
> this (sorry) but I do know it's totally different from DMCH's 
approach...
<SNIP>

And welcome everyone, to the wonderful world of DeLorean ownership!

Since 1981, DeLorean owners have been patiently been waiting for 
aftermarket support for their engines, rather than deal with the 
guilt/cost of a motor swap. And since this time, we've been taunted 
by a slew of people who lay down claims that these motors can be 
tuned, and can crank out the coupious amounts of power that we've all 
been wanting. But noooooooo. Everyone witholds this information from 
us, citing "trade secrets", and "business practices".

Wheather it's DMCH, DMUK, or Fred Dellis up on stage taunting 
everyone with his black portfolio saying, "All the hard work I ever 
did to create the Legend turbo motors, and the formulas and 
modification instructions for installation that I created are in this 
book. But I'm not gonna share it!" Facts are facts, and it's a 
straight out fact that I'm tired of this crap! Help us out! 'cause no 
one here is getting any younger, and everyone seems to want to take 
this "knowlege" to their graves with them.

Yes, I know that DMCH offers engine swaps. But at over $6,700 for 
their engine kit, that's allot of cash for a less than 68 or less hp 
gain, that doesn't even allow the car to break the 200bhp mark. And 
then there's still a $1,000 or so charge to ship the car to them. 
This is allot of cash, especially when I can get a race ready 5 litre 
Rover short block for less than $4K. And after all is said and done, 
come out ahead with 2 more cylinders, and nearly double the 
displacement, and NO core charge! And don't even think about the 
Island turbo kit. $7K+ for 2 compressors, a couple of custom 
manifolds, and ordinary plumbing is just plain asinine. For that 
money, I'd expect forged pistons & rods, plus new cam shafts & head 
gaskets to be included.

And transmissions are of no concern. The UN-1 has been in use for 
many years in GT-40 kit cars, and can/has been easily beefed up. 
Hell, you can swap the internals and make your car into a 6-speed!

Bottom line: I don't understand the logic here of keeping all this 
stuff a secret. Losing a few hundred dollars is nothing in comparison 
to the potential money to be made in sharing your tuning expertice 
with everyone. If our cars are more powerful, we enjoy them more. 
When we enjoy something we want to do it more often. And the more we 
drive our cars, the more we break stuff. And the more we break stuff, 
the more often we have to buy replacement parts from you guys.

If I'm wrong in this assumption, please share your opinions with me. 
Because I love the PRV's reliability, and the fact that I've already 
got a live engine to work with. But it's on it's last chance with me 
for being improved. I've no intention of buying nology wires for it, 
or performance exhaust when there is no worthwile, satisfying  
experience for me to be gained.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"








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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:43:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Shannon Yocom <ssdelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Celebrating the Irish


I'm usually the sarcastic VB nemesis but in this case you are quite welcome, glad
I could help. 
Keep informing the masses!

Shannon Y
16506
----------------        
   Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 01:20:59 -0600
   From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Celebrating the Irish

>>snip<<
Much thanks to the Ohio club for the "fact sheet", because I must have 
passed out about a ream of those suckers today.
>>snip<<
Thanks!
- Videobob
>>snip<<






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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 03:18:17 -0000
From: "sweitzel_2000" <sweitzel_at_dml_lffltd.com>
Subject: Re: 1 Year Anniversary...and a message of hope!



Tomorrow, Monday March 7th will be 1 year to the day that I brought
#3231 home. At the time, it had sat sleeping for 15 years with 4,858.9
miles on the odo. Thanks to all of the information gleaned from this
group as well as those previously mentioned, 3231 has blossomed into
the most rewarding vehicle investment I have ever made. It's really
something to say that you have a 23 year old vehicle that you feel
100% confident in jumping into and driving cross country if the need
arises. Not to mention the pleasure you see on people's faces when
they look at your car. Thanks to everyone here. and thanks to John
DeLorean for bringing the dream to us and to me.








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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 01:50:57 -0000
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Benson" <delornut_at_dml_p...> wrote:

> I can agree with much of this but one of the surprises I've
encountered in life was near the end of my days with Ford.....


Fair nuff Bruce. I've always given weight to your posts, not because
of your experience but because what you say is nearly always correct.
(The two must be connected eh?)

However, Nascar is hardly street operation. Nor has Rick defined
exactly what sort of "performance" he desires. He is certainly free to
go with carburation but in my opinion it's more trouble than it's
worth, especially during tuning. Jetting is a pain and still not all
that accurate.  I'll take a laptop and an open EFI system any day of
the week for a street machine. Tuning is a lot quicker too.

G

PS: Try jetting the CV or direct slide carbs on a bike. I'm going
through that right now after some mods and even with all the tuning
gear I own it's still a big hassle.








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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 03:10:48 -0000
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PRV Performance - Set me straight please



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Martin Gutkowski <martin_at_dml_d...> wrote:

>While you're absolutely correct in what you say, have a look at
www.journeytoforever.org and chase down the statistics on pollution
produced in the production of these modern, "cleaner" cars and compare
it to the emissions kicked out by a 20 year old car in 20 years<

Sorry Mate, I was unable to find the data you're refering to. If
you're implying 20 year old petrol powered cars produce less
emissions than modern ones all I can say is to send me some of
whatever emissions you've been smoking.
 
> Over here in Europe, we're now sitting on cars such as the Renault
Clio 182 and the Honda Civic type R (is this in the US yet?) both of
which are small, relatively economical runarounds that through some
really clever VVT are pushing the 100bhp/litre goal, normally
aspirated. North America is really behind the times<

Hey, you'll get no argument from me about that. It's what I meant when
I said technology is a substitute for displacement. As for emissions
I'm not familar with your standards so I'll have to plead ignorance.
However, 4.5% CO is serious pollution by ours and neither physics nor
the atmosphere changes across borders you know. It's OK, you can be
forgiven because your climate is wet enough to wash all that stuff out
of the air ;)

> According to my friend and PRV expert, anything over 2% is not a
healthy mix and you'll start experiencing bore-wash.<

Well, your friend is right...sort of. I left out bore wash (another
quaint Brit term) because I was under the impression you wanted
maximum bang for your buck (err pound). And I did say in another post
more power makes more wear. I'd argue 4% will cause wash but since
he's a PRV specialist I'll give him this. 2% is not best power however
and I thought that's what you were going for. All things considered
you're setting is a good one for street use. Just remember when
dealing with experts you need to trust, but verify...and don't believe
everything you read on .org sites ;)

> Remembering of course that the mixture adjustment screw is only the
"+C" in your fuelling graph and what really counts is shimming up the
primary pressure regulator and tuning it up using a wideband lambda
probe. You can also use this method, to a certain extent, to tune up a
turbo'd D.<

All true but a wideband O2S is still inferior to gas analysis or even
EGT, especially at WOT. There is more to emissions than exhaust stream
O2 content you know, it works pretty well for tuning but not so well
for diagnosis. But yes, you're right. I use one (a Innovate LM-1) and
it's a fine tool when used properly.

>After all, the K-Jet system is a crude air-mass meter, just a
restrictive one. Shim it up to account for that restriction and all
you have to worry about is the ignition<

Also true and for what you're doing shimming is good enough but it's
still, as you said, crude. Hey, I already said you were a sharp guy so
don't get cocky. Besides, last I checked you were still a little rough
on a few things. And what's your beef with ING? You shouldn't have any
problems with that, it's a cakewalk compared to fuel metering.

G








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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 03:50:21 -0000
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Air Conditioning



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_w...>
wrote:


A very good post on A/C David. You must be 609 or 608 certified. If
not you should get it.

Not much I could add except it's not all that difficult for a DIYer as
long as they (as you stated) do it right the first time. I suppose the
cost effectivness would depend on how many cars one has to deal with.
In my case I just buy 30 pounders. It lasts me (and all the "friends"
who show up after they learn I'm certified) years. I charge them
enough to cover to replace the R12 at bulk costs. 

It beats going to some auto store and getting those ever shrinking
cans. What are they down to now? 12 ounces? Jeez, their as bad as
candy bars and coffee. Plus you can avoid the kid at the counter
puffing up and saying you need a license to buy it when you're simply
asking the price. I tell them I never knew I had to have a license in
order to find out what I was going to pay before I bought something. 

Like you, I'm against 134 conversions (using R12 components) and
definately against drop-ins even when they're legal (many aren't).
Some morons out there have even used propane or butane. And many shops
won't even touch conversions because they'll have to ID what's in
there and don't want to risk trashing their reclaim/recycle unit.

Just a few notes: without a flush he should take into consideration
oil remaining throughout the system and adjust for it during refill.
And did you mention he should change the dryer? I also recommend he
ditch the FOV and switch to a variable orifice. or at minimum replace
the stock one when the system is opened.

Otherwise you're spot on in every respect. Frankly, pulling it all
apart and doing it 100% right is the way to go imho. That way you can
forget about it. Barrier hoses are also a good investment if one is
going to do the entire system and plans on keeping the car for a long
time. A pain yes, but a worthwhile improvment.

And whatever he does, I hope he doesn't use the engine to evac the
system. Some people advocate doing that that you know. Good grief.
They need to learn why it's so difficult to pump water vapor.

G








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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:13:04 -0000
From: "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PRV Performance



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_s...> wrote:
> 
> Just one more point on the fuel distributor. It can be modified to
flow all the fuel you need and then some. We can make it run out the
tail pipe if you want it.<


Who is "we"? Got a mouse in your pocket? ;)

Yes, of course. There isn't much to it although it's built with a fair
degree of precision. But modding isn't needed even under mild boost
and when I mentioned it's limitations I was refering more to airflow.
But you're right, and there are other ways to flow more fuel if
needed. I wouldn't want it running out the tailpipe though ;)

G








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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 05:19:59 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Air Conditioning


As long as you are critiqing my posts I will offer some comments on
yours. You are obviously very well trained, both formally and
clinically. Your spelling is also much better. On the minus side I
think IMHO you give way too much minutiae for most of the people on
the List when they are looking for simple answers and are lost with
much of  the details that you provide. If you are trying to impress
with your obviously vast knowledge just who are you trying to impress,
this List? I try to keep my answers short and sweet without going into
every detail. Of course that can leave out much but if asked further
you can always offer deeper detail. 

Since you asked I AM certified,
thank you. I was trying to point out that for most people A/C work is
not worth the effort and investment and they would be better off
giving it out. Sort of like tire balancing and alignments. Sometimes
it just isn't worth it. I agree if there is a problem with the A/C a
thourgh job is always better but economics always enters into the
picture. If the system is just low and clean then fixing the leak and
recharging is OK. Once you start replacing parts it is not always
clear where to stop. In any case every time you break open a joint you
take the chance of damaging it. Do you just do some "O" rings, or now
do the dryer, service valves, oil, screen, etc? You get carried away
and the customer pays. You always have to find some kind of balance
between the type of work you want to build your reputation on and the
bill you have to give the customer. Too high and they never come back.
You can't turn every job into a restoration. On the subject of
"Drop-In" replacements, I am using R-414, a blended refrigerent. I am
getting very good results and can recomend it. It is completely
compatible with all oils and seals and can even be topped off several
times. In fact (although it is not recomended) you can top off an R-12
system with it. I do like to pull a real hard vacuum, say 500u for an
hour so there is no water vapor. Water vapor is the big killer for any
closed cycle refrigerent system, it rots it from the inside out. I
doubt if a DIY is going to spend for a decent vacuum pump, reclaimer,
gauges, tools, supplies, etc. It just isn't worth it for one or two
cars. Now if you are going to do the neighborhood, that is a different
story. 

David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "endotex23" <endotex23_at_dml_y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_w...>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> A very good post on A/C David. You must be 609 or 608 certified.  






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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 06:01:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: PRV Performance / 6 Speed trans


I have spent extended periods of time looking through
Fred's "black book".  Although the information in
there is interesting from a historical point of view,
and represents a lot of hard work by talented people,
there was no "recipe" in there.  Even if you had that
book, you would need to spend thousands of dollars to
re-create a legend engine.  Keep in mind, I think the
"S" option was supposed to retail for like $4000 in
1984.  Adjust for inflation, and it is not a cheap
option to add.

And, with all due respect to Legend and Mr. Dellis,
they had design limitations set by DMC and were
working with base 1970's technology they were trying
to bring up to 1980's technology.  It is 2005 now, and
there are a lot more performance options available.

I have evaluated it OVER and OVER again.  YES you can
get lots of HP from a PRV, but the cost of it is
prohibitive.


Are you going to share your information on converting
a DMC gearbox to 6 speed with us??  I'd love to do
this to my car.


--- therealdmcvegas <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net> wrote:
<SNIP>
> Wheather it's DMCH, DMUK, or Fred Dellis up on stage
> taunting 
> everyone with his black portfolio saying, "All the
> hard work I ever 
> did to create the Legend turbo motors, and the
> formulas and 
> modification instructions for installation that I
> created are in this 
> book. But I'm not gonna share it!" Facts are facts,
> and it's a 
> straight out fact that I'm tired of this crap! Help
> us out! 'cause no 
> one here is getting any younger, and everyone seems
> to want to take 
> this "knowlege" to their graves with them.
<SNIP>
> 
> And transmissions are of no concern. The UN-1 has
> been in use for 
> many years in GT-40 kit cars, and can/has been
> easily beefed up. 
> Hell, you can swap the internals and make your car
> into a 6-speed!
<SNIP>



	
		
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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:55:29 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: Dan Haney <DRHANEY_at_dml_peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2508


I have to agree with Andrew, I've run a yellow-top for 5 years, same battery and its still strong.
My car starts on the 1st crank...

Dan
Vin - 03254






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