Subject:
[DML] Digest Number 2756
From:
dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Date:
24 Jul 2005 17:47:38 -0000
To:

dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com

There are 7 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Idle Speed Motor / Cooling
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

2. Re: Mode switch [was - Needed Badly: Button Clip]
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

3. Re: Poor airflow thru heater-A/C
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>

4. Re: Re: Poor airflow thru heater-A/C
From: "Jake Kamphoefner" <jakekamp_at_dml_sbcglobal.net>

5. Lubrication
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>

6. Re: Idle Speed Motor / Cooling
From: "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>

7. AW: Re: Idle Speed Motor / Cooling
From: "Elvis Nocita" <elvisnocita_at_dml_gmx.de>





Message: 1
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:08:15 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Idle Speed Motor / Cooling

If the motor still runs when you unplug the idle motor you have vacuum
leaks or your throttle linkage is not adjusted correctly or both. The
motor should stall when you pull the plug on the idle motor. Check
that the brass screws are closed. Check the throttle plate adjustments
that the throttle plates are closed all the way.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_h...> wrote:

>> I have been messing with my idle speed motor, trying to figure out

the loose 

>> connection
>> and I found that the car idles, and runs better when I simply unplug

the 

>> damn thing!
>> So, I don't know what to do, but when I unplug it the idle drops to

a nice 

>> level.
>> When I plug it in it rises, when I pull on the wires it drops again?
>> 
>> Cooling:
>> We had replaced the thermostat and I can not say for sure one way or

the 

>> other that
>> it changed anything.
>> I took the car out yesterday for a test drive to see if it would

overheat.

>> The temp stays around the first marker until I turn on the AC and

then it 

>> almost
>> doubles, the temp needle stayed just below the halway mark, about 210 
>> degrees
>> and at time reached the center of 220.
>> Is this normal and acceptable?
>> Will it harm the engine?
>> 
>> - VB







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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:14:07 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Re: Mode switch [was - Needed Badly: Button Clip]

You should never use a petroleum-based product like petroleum jelly
(aka vasoline) on rubber parts. It will, over time, deteriorate the
rubber. Same for grease or oil. I have not used Wurth's, I use
silicone grease. You can pick up a tube at an auto parts store. Same
stuff used for ignition connections. Petroleum jelly will also get
gummy and make the switch hard to turn eventually. Whatever you use
don't get sloppy with it. You just need a tiny bit. Too much will just
attarct dirt.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_d...> wrote:

>> Better than petroleum jelly is some stuff called "Wurth's Rubber 
>> Care" - you probably have to get it online because there are not many 
>> retail places that carry Wurth's. 
>> 
>> It used to be sold at BMW dealers as "Gummi Pflege" (Elvis help me 
>> out here but I think that's German for "Rubber Care"). Some BMW

places may still have it in stock. 

>>







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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:22:29 -0000
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>
Subject: Re: Poor airflow thru heater-A/C

Any of this is possible - to find out you'll have to go look at the 
car. There is no way to tell which of the things it could be based on 
only a written description. Here are some thoughts on what to look 
for:
---
If the drain hose is plugged you get wet carpet. It does not impact 
the air flow. The end of the drain hose is visible if you remove the 
access panel under the spare tire. When the A/C blower is operating 
you should feel some airflow from the hose. You should be able to 
blow thru it.  

---
Air flow can be slowed by many things - you could have an inoperative 
vacuum-controlled door, a reversed/bad motor, an evaporator full of 
leaves. The only way to tell will be to go thru some troubleshooting 
and eliminate things. If you remove the motor you can get your hand 
in the evap case and see how much gook is in the bottom. Clean it out 
as best you can, anything in there holds moisture and will cause the 
evaporator to corrode just that much faster. 
---
Trace the vacuum hose routing to make sure that everything is in the 
right place. There is a great diagram in the tech manual (not the 
service manual). Use a mighty-vac (hand vacuum pump) to manually 
operate the vacuum doors in turn. 
---

A quick check on the fan is to remove the fan from the mount but 
leave it connected. Turn it on while holding it in your hand. Facing 
the blower it should turn counterclockwise. 

You can easily reverse the fan to see if this is the problem. The fan 
is under the dash on the right side. There is one red wire and 
several black wires that terminate there. To reverse the motor you 
only have to swap the wires. There is only one lug where the red wire 
oes, so to hook up the three black wires there you'll have to make up 
a jumper from spade connectors. Then you can connect the one red wire 
to the original ground, and the three black wires to the 
original "hot" lead. This will reverse the motor, if your airflow is 
suddenly a lot better then someone used the wrong fan at some point 
(there's a fan on most of the cross-ref lists that does this!). 
If you decide to leave it this way keep in mind that the case of the 
fan motor is now "electrically hot". 
---
Another thing to consider - why did the original fan motor fail? 
Heater fans normally last a pretty long time, normally the life of 
the car. BUT - if the drain is clogged and the evap case fills up 
with water, in addition to eventually soaking the carpet on the right 
side it will splash over into the fan motor which makes it get rusty 
and lock up. 

----

AC not being cold enough is a refrigeration problem. Get the airflow 
right first, if it's still not cold you're going to need to find 
someone who can check and/or recharge the system. 

Dave Swingle


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "sweetp01569" <paul.sweet_at_dml_f...> wrote:

>> Perhaps I have the same issue.  With my blower on the highest 
>> setting (with AC on or not), it seems like mediocre flow through 

the 

>> dash and door vents, but hardly any air throught the floor.  I 
>> didn't even know there were floor vents until I read these posts!  
>> Also, AC is not that cold,either.
>> 
>> Could I have clogged evap and drain hose, or could my blower also 

be 

>> reversed?
>> 
>> Also, where is the end of the drain to attach a vac?  
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Paul
>> 
>> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Jake Kamphoefner <jakekamp_at_dml_s...> 
>> wrote:
>
>>> >  
>>> > Dave,
>>> >  
>>> > I was recently in the same situation.  Here's a couple things I 
>
>> checked to fix my problem:
>
>>> >  
>>> > - Make sure the blower and squirrel cage are correct.  There are 

a 

>> lot of GM equivalents that fit perfectly, but the blower motor 
>> either turns the wrong direction, or the squirrel cage is cut to 

the 

>> mirror of the DeLorean (that is, it is made so that turning the 
>> opposite direction causes the air to flow the same direction).  
>> After I replaced my blower with an OEM that I bought amongst a hand-
>> full of other parts, my air flow highly increased.
>
>>> >  
>>> > - I also resealed the infamous foam on the back of the A/C box
>>> >  
>>> > - Cleaning the evap?  Here's how I did it.  I taped a wet shop 

vac 

>> on to the drain hose.  Then I removed the blower motor and the 
>> resistor to give extra room to get my hands in, and pulled back my 
>> carpet to lay down some old towels.  Start by dumping a little 

water 

>> into the evaporator box, then use your contortionist skills to 

reach 

>> into the box and pull that gunk out.  Keep pouring water through it 
>> and make sure it's making it to the vac.  You may have to stop to 
>> unclog the line a couple times.  Then I put a length of clear hose 
>> on the end of my garden hose, and fed it into the box.  With the 
>> hose on *slow* (it's a lot more water when coming out of the small 
>> clear hose), I nozzled the tube with my thumb and sprayed the 
>> evaporator for a long time.  Be careful not to get more water in 
>> than the drain hose can handle.
>
>>> >  
>>> > Oh yeah, and this job sucks.  But it's better than removing the 
>
>> evap.
>
>>> >  
>>> > Jake








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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:39:19 -0500
From: "Jake Kamphoefner" <jakekamp_at_dml_sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Poor airflow thru heater-A/C


Dave is exactly right, but I want to add one more thing.  The first thing 
you should check is the foam on the back of the evaporator casing.  This 
foam starts to come of on every DeLorean.  If you haven't checked yours, 
I'll bet it's starting to come off.

http://www.dmcnews.com/Techsection/heatairleak.htm

Jake Kamphoefner
1063

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 11:22 AM
Subject: [DML] Re: Poor airflow thru heater-A/C



>> Any of this is possible - to find out you'll have to go look at the
>> car. There is no way to tell which of the things it could be based on
>> only a written description. Here are some thoughts on what to look
>> for:
>> ---

<snip> 





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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:35:12 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_webspan.net>
Subject: Lubrication

Several recent posts about the steering lock, steering bushing, mode
switch, speedometer, all are about lubrication. After 20+ years the
origional lubrication has long since dried out. Many of these and
other problems can be solved by relubricating the parts. Not just the
immediate problem but a complete whole-car lubrication. Too often
people just work on the immediate problem not realizing these are just
the surface symptoms of a wider problem and never get "ahead of the
curve" just having problem after problem. To fix the car right and get
ahead of these things you have to be proactive. Just go and fix
EVERYTHING, even the things that aren't "broke" yet but will soon be.
Even a car with extremely low mileage is going to have these issues
just due to it's age. Maybe not right away but very soon. Same thing
for weatherstripping like door seals and fuel system parts like the
fuel pump boots, accumulater, injector seals, and pick-up hose. On the
cooling system side it is the water pump, every hose and seal, belts,
and idler bearings. You cannot run on these parts for over 20 years
and not expect something bad to happen! In the electrical system you
see it by corrosion at the connections. On the leather it dries out
and cracks. I can go on but the general gist of this post is that a
car needs a LOT of maintainence. Especially if it is 20+ years old and
was not taken care of properly. Hitting these little problems
piecemeal one-at-a-time is the long, hard way to go. Start by
replacing ALL the fluids in the car.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757







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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:17:11 -0000
From: "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>
Subject: Re: Idle Speed Motor / Cooling

Also- sometimes the throttle plates or throttle plate shaft wears so
that it allows air to keep flowing even though the plates are closed.
This was my case, if you take off the whole assembly and hold it up to
the light you will see if there is wear by the amount of light that
comes through. It is normal for there to be a very slight amount of
space between the plates and the body wall. -----Dani B. #5003


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_w...> wrote:

>> If the motor still runs when you unplug the idle motor you have vacuum
>> leaks or your throttle linkage is not adjusted correctly or both. The
>> motor should stall when you pull the plug on the idle motor. Check
>> that the brass screws are closed. Check the throttle plate adjustments
>> that the throttle plates are closed all the way.
>> David Teitelbaum
>> vin 10757
>> 
>> 
>> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_h...>

wrote:

>>> > I have been messing with my idle speed motor, trying to figure out
>
>> the loose 
>
>>> > connection
>>> > and I found that the car idles, and runs better when I simply unplug
>
>> the 
>
>>> > damn thing!
>>> > So, I don't know what to do, but when I unplug it the idle drops to
>
>> a nice 
>
>>> > level.
>>> > When I plug it in it rises, when I pull on the wires it drops again?
>>> > 
>>> > Cooling:
>>> > We had replaced the thermostat and I can not say for sure one way or
>
>> the 
>
>>> > other that
>>> > it changed anything.
>>> > I took the car out yesterday for a test drive to see if it would
>
>> overheat.
>
>>> > The temp stays around the first marker until I turn on the AC and
>
>> then it 
>
>>> > almost
>>> > doubles, the temp needle stayed just below the halway mark, about 210 
>>> > degrees
>>> > and at time reached the center of 220.
>>> > Is this normal and acceptable?
>>> > Will it harm the engine?
>>> > 
>>> > - VB









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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:10:35 +0200
From: "Elvis Nocita" <elvisnocita_at_dml_gmx.de>
Subject: AW: Re: Idle Speed Motor / Cooling

The engine would only stall when you pull the connector if 
the idle motor is closed in that moment. It could also be wide 
open so that idle would shoot up to >2000rpm, or somewhere in 
between so that it seem to idle ok.

The idle motor is a valve that is driven by a PWM with 100Hz.

The main difference between unplugged or not is that the
control circuit is disabled and the constant airflow will 
smooth out the idle speed (remember the carburators ?).

VB - is the behaviour always the same ? How often did you test it ?
once ? twice ? ten times ?
What is a good idle for you ? 775rpm ?
The main problem here is the observation of the different symptoms.
Did you test the motor like I asked you to do ?
+12V to the center spade, then Ground to the left spade, right spade, 
left spade...
The motor should open and close completely each time Ground is 
changed to the other spade. If this works the motor should be ok.
If it is the connector - fix it.
If it is the idle ECU - hey, you live in Texas, you can ask at least 
two different vendors to send you another ECU to test it - luxury
that the rest of the delorean-world only can dream of.

Last time I checked the idle of a car in Texas there was the plug for the
mixture adjustment screw missing. David is right when he asks you to check 
the mechanical stuff - linkage, switch, brass screws...

Also - if the switch is not being activated when pushed (not pushed far 
enough or simply broken) - the idle is set to >1000rpm ! No, the ECU is
NOT turned off !

Also - A/C on - temperature goes up ?
How fast ? within a second or within several minutes ?
If it is within seconds it must be a wrong measurement due to electrical
problems. The engine's temperature can't jump !
Why should the temperature go up when the fans turn on ? The only way
this could happen is when the air in Texas is hotter than the engine !
Therefore I bet it is an electrical issue. Did you check the Ground 
connections ? Do you know where they are ?

Elvis & 6548


If the motor still runs when you unplug the idle motor you have vacuum
leaks or your throttle linkage is not adjusted correctly or both. The
motor should stall when you pull the plug on the idle motor. Check
that the brass screws are closed. Check the throttle plate adjustments
that the throttle plates are closed all the way.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757





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