Subject:[DML] Digest Number 2896
From:dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Date:28 Sep 2005 03:02:20 -0000
To:dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Variations of the original big Sales Brochure?
From: Patrick Conlon <PRC1216_at_dml_aol.com>

2. Re: Weird Question Alert.
From: Ryan Wright <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com>

3. Re: LED Center Console Burnout
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>

4. Re: "D" may stand for Divorce....the ongoing 6859 saga
From: Ryan Wright <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com>

5. Re: Cooling System Refilling
From: Ryan Wright <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com>

6. Re: Re: Cooling fans
From: Gus Schlachter <gus_at_dml_austin.rr.com>

7. Re: Cooling fans
From: "Toby Peterson" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>

8. Cheap Time Machine
From: "mydmc5898" <mydmc5898_at_dml_yahoo.com>

9. Re: LED Center Console Burnout
From: "Robert Lingo" <rlingo_at_dml_midsouth.rr.com>

10. AW: LED Rear Light Replacment...
From: "Elvis Nocita" <elvisnocita_at_dml_gmx.de>

11. Re: Re: Cooling fans
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>

12. Re: "D" may stand for Divorce....the ongoing 6859 saga
From: Thomas Mc Auley <dmc4087_at_dml_yahoo.co.uk>

13. Re: Weird Question Alert.
From: "Bernie" <bmanderville_at_dml_comcast.net>

14. Re: Cooling fans
From: "Marv Hein" <marvhein_at_dml_hotmail.com>

15. crumple tube
From: "funkstuf" <funkstuf_at_dml_hotmail.com>

16. Water Leaks...again. Any advice/ideas?
From: Patrick Conlon <PRC1216_at_dml_aol.com>

17. Re: Steering rack boot installation
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_optonline.net>

18. Re: LED Center Console Burnout
From: Greg Zapf <x86Daddy_at_dml_gmail.com>

19. Re: Wiring in some extra juice
From: Greg Zapf <x86Daddy_at_dml_gmail.com>

20. Re: "Mock" DeLorean needed
From: "Joe OBrien" <joeyoseppijoe_at_dml_yahoo.com>

21. Fiberglass cleaning
From: "Daniel" <dmcburn75_at_dml_yahoo.com>

22. RE: Cooling System Refilling
From: "Jeff Friday" <DeLorean_Type304_at_dml_msn.com>

23. Brake saga........
From: "basfe25" <dmcman73_at_dml_hotmail.com>

24. Your Delorean, terrorism and ebay
From: "delorean6859" <tmadsop_at_dml_comcast.net>

25. ebay buyer protection
From: "delorean6859" <tmadsop_at_dml_comcast.net>





Message: 1
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:06:22 -0400
From: Patrick Conlon <PRC1216_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Re: Variations of the original big Sales Brochure?

That isn't it at the top of the page...I'm talking about the "1981  
Full 20 Page Brochure" that Tamir has listed. That is the brochure I  
have that is different with the Dunmurry address on the first page  
that says "Presenting the DeLorean".  When I have time I will have to  
look and see if it is really missing a few pages from the US one.

-Patrick C.
1880


On Sep 27, 2005, at 1:37 PM, Jake Kamphoefner wrote:


>>
>> Tamir noticed the European brochure.  You can view both of them in  
>> the "Propaganda" area of his site.
>>
>> www.entermyworld.com
>>
>> Jake Kamphoefner
>> 1063
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 9/26/2005 8:56:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>> PRC1216_at_dml_aol.com writes:
>>
>> One my water damaged brochure, the first page simply says
>> "Presenting the DeLorean", and on my new brochure that I got today,
>> it also says "Presenting the DeLorean" yet at the bottom of the page
>> it says "De Lorean Motor Cars Limited, Dunmurry Industrial Estate,
>> Dunmurry, Co. Antrim, N. Ireland, BT17 9JJ".
>>
>> I never knew there were variations to the brochure. Has anyone else
>> ever noticed this?
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>>
>> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see  
>> www.dmcnews.com
>>
>> To search the archives or view files, log in at http:// 
>> groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 2
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 11:30:35 -0700
From: Ryan Wright <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Weird Question Alert.

Yes, it's all 12V.

-Ryan

On 9/27/05, Jeremiah Montee <angelito03299_at_dml_yahoo.com> wrote:

>>
>> Hey.
>>
>> Is the entire lighting portion of our cars 12 volts
>> (binnacle, doors, license plate, headlight/hazzard
>> switches, interior dome, console, etc)?  I know -
>> weird question - but I found a suitable replacement
>> LED for the headlight/hazzard switches as well as the
>> cigarette lighter, and I just want to know which
>> voltage I should order.  I made this mistake once and
>> ordered 6V LEDs - not fun...
>>
>> Jeremiah
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________
>> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>>
>> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>>
>> To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 3
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:32:27 -0500
From: "Videobob Moseley" <videobob_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: LED Center Console Burnout

Under normal conditions, they should last forever, but if you have problems 
with fluctuating voltage, shorts or bad conditions it could damage the bulbs 
or make them asct funny.
- VB



>>From: Jake Kamphoefner <jakekamp_at_dml_sbcglobal.net>
>>Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>>To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [DML] LED  Center  Console Burnout
>>Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:39:43 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>
>>Rod,
>>
>>I've had mine in slightly less time than you, but the car is driven daily.  
>>I had one of the white bulbs begin "strobing" erratically, but the company 
>>agreed to replace it for free.  --Now I just have to get my ass in gear and 
>>mail it to them!   :-) 
>>
>>Jake
>>
>>
>>
>>Rod Dillman <rhdillman_at_dml_yahoo.com> wrote:
>>I have had LEDs in my center console for about two years. I am having to 
>>replace them one or two bulbs at a time due to burnout. It is always the 
>>four top bulbs, never the three on the bottom. I used red bulbs on the 
>>bottom for the fan fail, door lock and rear window defrost. I used super 
>>white in the other four slots. Has any one else had a problem with LED 
>>burnout? I changed out my doors to LEDs at the same time and have had no 
>>problems there. Thanks Rod 10921
>>
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>>moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>>
>>For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>>
>>To search the archives or view files, log in at 
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>>moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>>
>>For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>>
>>To search the archives or view files, log in at 
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 4
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 11:29:42 -0700
From: Ryan Wright <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: "D" may stand for Divorce....the ongoing 6859 saga

For what it's worth, I've pulled my transmission twice in the past
year. First time to replace the clutch, second time to fix a problem I
created when replacing the clutch.

It's not fun, but it's not terrible, either. If you choose to do this
yourself, you will need:

1. A set of four heavy duty jack stands. Do NOT cheap out. My first
set ($8/pair at Wal-Mart) collapsed while the car was in the air.
Thank God I was not under it at the time. They were rated well above
what I was using them for, too. They've been replaced with heavy duty
"SUV" jack stands _at_dml_ $35/pair because I'm now paranoid.

2. A really nice jack; two jacks and a helper will make getting the
car up and down easier, but I did it all myself.

3. Infinite patience, care, and concern. The entire car needs to be up
the air quite high to get this done right, and it has to be level -
you can't just jack the back up. Putting a car up this high on four
jack stands is dangerous. You have to move each end slowly, a few
inches at a time, and just watch yourself.

Or, replace steps 1 through 3 with a lift. I will be putting a lift
into the next house/garage I build.

4. Once the car is up you MUST have a good transmission jack. I took
mine out the first time with a regular floor jack and didn't have
problems, but getting it back in was impossible. After countless hours
of pain and frustration I went out and bought a transmission jack; it
slid right in after that.

5. Get the car up high enough to slide yourself in on a creeper so you
don't have to lay on the concrete. Makes things much easier.

If I had to pull my transmission again, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I,
too, thought about hiring it out the second time until I realized it
would cost me a thousand bucks and they'd break who knows what while
they were under there. So I spent another weekend under the car.

-Ryan

On 9/27/05, AJL521_at_dml_aol.com <AJL521_at_dml_aol.com> wrote:

>>        Trust you best judgment on whether or not you want to pull the trans
>> yourself, but let me just say, that after having the trans out of my delorean,
>> it's not a project that I would ever want to repeat, at least not without a
>> lift.  If the car is already testing your paitance, trying to put that
>> transmission back in will surely make matters worse.  Again, if you have access to a
>> lift, it's a differnt story, but putting a transmission while lying on your back
>> on a cold cement floor, in any car is no picnic.  I prefer to do everything
>> on my DeLorean myself, but when it comes to the transmission, next time I face
>> that issue(hopefully there won't be a next time) I will gladly pay to make
>> that job somebody elses problem.



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 5
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 11:40:36 -0700
From: Ryan Wright <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Cooling System Refilling

Bob,

Follow this procedure for refilling the cooling system:
http://www.dmcnews.com/Techsection/cooling.htm

The real keys here are the parts about flushing with a garden hose and
filling through the upper radiator hose (in the engine compartment).

If you do not yet have a radiator quickbleeder deal, buy one from Toby
(www.delorean-parts.com). You do need to bleed air from the radiator
area and this makes the job relatively painless once installed. If
your radiator is original be very careful with the hoses, the radiator
bibs are plastic. Mine broke and I had to replace the radiator.

-Ryan


On 9/27/05, Robert J. Wilson <rjwilson62_at_dml_yahoo.com> wrote:

>> Last week I re-charged the AC on my DeLorean and took it out for a
>> drive.  AC had not been operating for several months.  At a stop, I
>> let it idle for about two minutes and noticed that the temperature
>> gauge was just above the normal position.  It stayed there as I
>> drove another mile and then steam came from the engine compartment,
>> fogging the rear window.  I pulled over and shut it off right away.
>> The original plastic coolant overflow tank had ruptured down the
>> bottom seam and coolant was all over. (The car has 11,000 miles on
>> it.)
>>
>> Anyhow, I got it towed home and have ordered, received, and
>> installed a new stainless steel overflow tank.  I also have a
>> complete new hose kit but have only partially installed it. (Looks
>> like a real job - some are barely reachable!) I plan to test the car
>> with only a partial install of the new hoses since I now have
>> concerns that the fans are not working properly and I want to check
>> that out.
>>
>> I know from reading this web site that there is a special re-filling
>> procedure but could not find it last night in the shop manual.  Is
>> it in the shop manual and I'm not finding it?  If so, just tell me
>> where.  If it is not in the manual where can I find it?
>>
>> I'm reading all of the recent posts about "Fanzilla" and
>> alternatives.  Any advice here?  I have been told that hearing the
>> fans sequence on can easily be heard from the driver's seat,
>> specially with the window down.  I don't think I have ever heard
>> this.  The fans may never have came on!  (I have the two fuses in
>> the blue relay socket in the area behind the passenger seat.)
>>
>> Anyhow, that is where I am.  Thanks is advance for any help!
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Bob W.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>>
>> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>>
>> To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 6
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:13:45 -0500
From: Gus Schlachter <gus_at_dml_austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Cooling fans

Okay, so I am crazy.  The fans pull...which is why they are inefficient 
without the shroud.  I get it.

But dude..."fair mount of R&D"?!??  Have you SEEN the wiring diagram?  :-) 


Gus Schlachter
VIN #4695
Austin, Texas






denverdelorean <denverdelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com> 
Sent by: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
09/27/2005 12:40 PM
Please respond to
dmcnews


To
dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
cc

Subject
[DML] Re: Cooling fans






The fans are mounted on the back of the radiator, but to my 
knowledge, they "pull" air through the radiator.  The air moves in 
the correct direction.

Whatever it is, it works.  These cars did go through a fair amount 
of r and d before production.

Matt
16076


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Gus Schlachter <gus_at_dml_a...> wrote:

>> I have a fairly stupid question.  Feel free to mock me if I am way 

off 

>> base, but...
>> 
>> Don't the cooling fans sit behind the radiator, and blow air 

forward? This 

>> seems all fine and good while sitting still, but when the car is 

in motion 

>> the airflow is entering the radiator from the front.  Doesn't this 

mean 

>> that using the cooling fans at highway speeds is actually 
>> counter-productive?!??
>> 
>> On "old-fashioned" cars, this made more sense, since it would be 

silly to 

>> push the air through the radiator and into the engine 

compartment.  But on 

>> the DMC, there is no engine behind the radiator.  Besides, we have 
>> electric fans and not belt-driven fans, so they can be deactivated 

at 

>> will.
>> 
>> I think it really gets nutty when the A/C condenser and engine 

radiator 

>> are strapped together, so that no matter which way the wind blows, 

one is 

>> always heating the other!
>> 
>> 
>> Gus Schlachter
>> VIN #4695
>> Austin, Texas
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see 
www.dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 7
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:36:32 -0000
From: "Toby Peterson" <tobyp_at_dml_katewwdb.com>
Subject: Re: Cooling fans

Gus - Actually, the fans are mounted behind the radiator, and are 
designed to pull air through the radiator.  Then, at highway speeds, 
the fans should shut off, allowing the air that is moving through the 
radiator by virtue of the car moving to cool the A/C refrigerant and 
the coolant.  If the fans were pushing air forward, you would be 
correct in saying that this configuration would be counter productive 
at best.  Many times, people have been advised on this List to verify 
that their fans are blowing the correct way (aft) when people report 
overheating issues.  In regards to your last point, it does seem that 
heat being taken out of the A/C refrigerant is then passed downstream 
to the radiator, where it adds heat to the air moving through the 
radiator.  The amount of heat is not excessive, so it really doesn't 
have a large effect on the efficiency of the radiator in cooling the 
coolant. (That sounded nearly redundant).  There are Brand X cars 
with fans on the forward side of the radiator, which then push air 
through from the front side.  This is necessary sometimes due to 
clearance issues in tight engine spaces.  This configuration also 
interferes with air flow at speed, so is a compromise in function.  I 
hope this helps.

Mock you?  Never!

Toby Peterson  VIN 2248 "Winged1"
DeLorean Parts Northwest, LLC
www.delorean-parts.com

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Gus Schlachter <gus_at_dml_a...> wrote:

>> I have a fairly stupid question.  Feel free to mock me if I am way 

off base, but...

>> 
>> Don't the cooling fans sit behind the radiator, and blow air 

forward? 






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 8
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 19:34:43 -0000
From: "mydmc5898" <mydmc5898_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Cheap Time Machine

I think I'm building the first Time Machine under $300, and it 
shows. 
I started this for my aunt and Uncle for a Halloween party. With my 
car having many problems at the moment, I dosn't move much at the 
moment so I decided to start making a stand still DeLorean Time 
Machine. Most of it is just carboard and duckt tape. But so far my 
total has come under $200. I posted some pics of it. Next year when 
I have the funds I will use better supplies and make it drivable 
with all of that stuff on it. I used, plexiglass, carboard, sheet 
metal, lots and lots of duckt tape. And since I have little money to 
use on it I found some old yarn which I twisted to make it nice and 
stonge so it dosen't look as cheap.

Well its a little more then half done. let me know what you think, 
yeah it isn't great or anywhere near it, but its all done just for a 
quick version.


Thanks
Darryl
VIN 5898







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 9
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:40:27 -0500
From: "Robert Lingo" <rlingo_at_dml_midsouth.rr.com>
Subject: Re: LED Center Console Burnout



>> It is always the four top bulbs, never the three on the bottom. >
>>


I'm no electrical engineer but I have wired LEDs before. I just installed 
four, 3.5V white LEDs for my licsense plate ilummination and it looks 
awesome. It sounds like the four bulbs that keep burning out are doing so 
because of a slight over voltage to those lights.  LEDs are pretty sensitive 
to power spikes as well. Their life-span will be cut drastically if the 
voltage is constantly a couple of volts over wht the LED is rated for. Heat 
will also cut into their lifetime.  What voltage are the white LEDs you're 
using? Compare them to the red LEDs you have.  What's the difference in 
voltage requirments? I use super whites that are rated at 3.5 volts each. I 
can run four lights in 'series' conntected to a 12volt power source.  That 
way I have a built in buffer of 2 volts for the four lights, running the 
lights in an underpowered condition (they will practically last forever that 
way).  I haven't installed any LEDs in my instrument cluster yet so I don't 
know how they're wired.  You might need to install some resistors to cut 
back the voltage going to those LEDs a little. Better break out the 
multimeter.

Lingo #2034





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 10
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 21:47:28 +0200
From: "Elvis Nocita" <elvisnocita_at_dml_gmx.de>
Subject: AW: LED Rear Light Replacment...


ok this post is a week old, but I just returned from my vacations.

Marty - did you try to use a resistor instead of the relay ?
I mean a let's say 470 Ohm to 1k resistor in parallel to the diodes ?

Just a suggestion because it is easier to install and much smaller.

Elvis




That somebody was me. The cruise control systems I tried (Audiovox 
and Dakota Digital) required a ground to be present through the wire 
that connects to the brake light switch when the switch was not 
active. Regular bulbs will present this ground to the wire through 
the filament of the bulb. LEDs have such a high impedance that there 
is virtually no ground present on the wire anymore.

Adding an LED 3rd light to a system with conventional bulbs still in 
the brakelight sockets will work fine, since the regular bulbs are 
conducting to ground. 

The solution for changing the regular brake light bulbs to LEDS is 
to install a relay in the brake light wire which will toggle between 
a known ground reference when off and the +12v of the brakelight 
circuit when the pedel is pressed. I am in the process of 
documenting how I did this and will post the scheme soon.

Marty Galbreath
#3765





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 11
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:49:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Cooling fans

They suck air through, just like on the older cars
with the belt-driven fan.

That is one of the reasons the fuel tank gets so hot,
the hot air from the radiator is blowing across it.


--- Gus Schlachter <gus_at_dml_austin.rr.com> wrote:


>> I have a fairly stupid question.  Feel free to mock
>> me if I am way off 
>> base, but...

<SNIP>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 12
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:43:42 +0100 (BST)
From: Thomas Mc Auley <dmc4087_at_dml_yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: "D" may stand for Divorce....the ongoing 6859 saga

Well at least yours is running! Mine didnt start, and when we did get it started, it would barely move thanks to a dead automatic gearbox which has been replaced with a nice refurbished manual one!
The drivers door had to be replaced
The starter motor gave in
The brakes gave up the battle too
Electrics werent the greatest
Bumpers were a sore sight
 
But, everything is coming together nicely, and I wouldnt swop or sell the car for anything. The experience of fixing the car has helped me gain friends in the club and even get closer to my family because of the amount of time spent together working on it. It can be frustrating, but its a good craic! (irish word)
 
Its a 25 year old car, be prepared!
Good luck
 
Thomas Mc Auley
Vin #4087
Belfast
 
p.s. ITS WORTH IT IN THE END

delorean6859 <tmadsop_at_dml_comcast.net> wrote:
I haven't posted in a little while on #6859, mostly because I have 
been traveling so much I haven't had a whole lot of time to work on 
her. When I do, it is usually at 3AM. The neighbors think I operate 
a Myth lab in the garage and my wife is losing her patience. Don't 
laugh.....I may be sleeping on YOUR couch.

Let me first start by thanking Mike Pack for coming out to my house a 
few weeks ago and giving the car a once over with his dad while I was 
1000 miles away for work!

Here's a synopsis of the problems and what I have found. The good 
thing is I think I've identified all of the problems and their root 
cause. (Remember, this car is "Excellent...needs nothing....according 
to the seller on ebay):

The car sounding like it was trailing "just married" cans behind it 
during deceleration. A check of the engine compartment showed the 
idle mixture screw anti-tamper cover had been removed and replaced 
with a plastic plug. In law enforcement we call that "a clue". 
Well, that puppy was WAY rich. I dialed it back and have since fixed 
that.

The racing idle, I suspect is being caused by the o2 sensor being 
fouled by the constant rich mixture. I will be replacing that 
shortly. I don't think it is a vacuum leak since I also replaced all 
of the vacuum lines anyway.

The rubbing of the rear tires = I think a result of running tire 
pressure WAY low.

The noise from the right rear during hard cornering = a result of the 
car being lowered with Eabach springs. The clamp for the CV boot is 
hitting a metal shield underneath the car during hard corners. I am 
in the process of grinding the shield back a little bit to provide 
some clearance. I will eventually be replacing (upgrading) the 
shocks and the upper and lower coil links since the bushings look 
pretty rough.

The front tire rubbing is a combination of low tire pressure and the 
lower speedo cable not being secured.

I went through the relays just to look at their condition and found a 
curious thing, two relays zip tied together. Like an idiot, I cut 
the zip tie and pulled the relays to look at them. One of the relays 
was the lambda the other one was........I don't remember. Bottom 
line is after doing this, the car wouldn't start. A little reminder, 
I bought this car from a guy who was a mechanic and he claimed he was 
using the money for him to open a shop. I now think I supported his 
drug habbit for a few weeks, because instead of replacing a relay, he 
found the exact position where the relay would work and zip tied it 
there!!! New relays are in the mail.

I also replaced the headliner to remove the large grease spot from 
the previous owner. (Man, I hope he reads these posts)

The BAD thing is the transmission. Simple problem + cheap part = 
major repair bill. The second gear fork pin is broken resulting in 
an intermittant problem with shifting into second gear. Looks like 
the transmission is going to need to be dropped and cracked open to 
repair. I'm not sure I have the stones to try that one....so I may 
have to bite the bullet. That will probably be one of the last 
things fixed, unless someone in the DC/Maryland area is comfortable 
enough to walk me through it some day. (I'll buy unlimited beer and 
whatever, I mean WHATEVER you want to eat for the day if you help me 
with that one)Coincidently, I found a receipt for that very part in 
the car dated just a few days prior to my picking it up from the 
seller, leading me to believe he knew about the problem, attempted to 
repair it, but decided against it. I'm actually glad he didn't fix 
it, he probably would have had left over parts anyway.

I've gotten to the point where I don't even want to look at Stainless 
Steel appliances right now. Let my experience be a lesson to anyone 
looking at a Delorean.....LOOK AT EVERYTHING! If something seems out 
of place, LOOK CLOSER! And under no circumstances should you have 
your wife drop you off at a rest area 300 miles from home to pick up 
a car you haven't seen yet based on the assurance of the previous 
owner that the car needs nothing!!!!!!







To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
Yahoo! Groups Links







		
---------------------------------
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos. Get Yahoo! Photos

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 13
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 21:17:13 -0000
From: "Bernie" <bmanderville_at_dml_comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Weird Question Alert.

Short answer 12V.

Longer answer it's a 12V system, so 12V lights would be required.  
The only time voltages would be reduced would be in some internal 
circuit to drive electronics.  And light bulbs do not have any 
voltage dropping reqiurements.  You could use 6V LEDS with the 
appropriate resistor, but then you would be generating more heat 
than if you just use 12V LEDs.  The LEDs have their own internal 
circuitry to handle voltage reduction etc.

Bernie
--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Jeremiah Montee <angelito03299_at_dml_y...> 
wrote:

>> 
>> Hey.
>> 
>> Is the entire lighting portion of our cars 12 volts
>> (binnacle, doors, license plate, headlight/hazzard
>> switches, interior dome, console, etc)?  I know -
>> weird question - but I found a suitable replacement
>> LED for the headlight/hazzard switches as well as the
>> cigarette lighter, and I just want to know which
>> voltage I should order.  I made this mistake once and
>> ordered 6V LEDs - not fun...
>> 
>> Jeremiah
>> 
>> 
>> 		
>> __________________________________ 
>> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
>> http://mail.yahoo.com







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 14
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 21:36:41 -0000
From: "Marv Hein" <marvhein_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Cooling fans

They clearly didn't do any R&D in the desert.  :) 

I had to add a fuel cooler to my car in order to use it as a daily 
driver in the Summer here in Vegas.  

The fans do indeed pull air through the whole 
cooler/condensor/radiator sandwich in the same direction 
as "natural" airflow when the car is moving.

Marv
#10820


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "denverdelorean" 
<denverdelorean_at_dml_y...> wrote:

>> The fans are mounted on the back of the radiator, but to my 
>> knowledge, they "pull" air through the radiator.  The air moves in 
>> the correct direction.
>> 
>> Whatever it is, it works.  These cars did go through a fair amount 
>> of r and d before production.
>> 
>> Matt
>> 16076








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 15
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 21:43:08 -0000
From: "funkstuf" <funkstuf_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: crumple tube

Closer look at Vin 941 reveals the need to replace the crumple tube.
Not due to rust, but, it clearly struck something on both sides
of the front extension.  Wondering if anybody has done this and 
estimates on time and procedures.
Dale Funk
Vin 4984







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 16
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:51:28 -0400
From: Patrick Conlon <PRC1216_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Water Leaks...again. Any advice/ideas?

If you all remember, I was the water leak king a few years ago,  
always posting about this leak and that leak on vin 1880.  Well I  
still have them, and even Dave Bauerle's shop had no luck, yet  
stopped one coming in under the passenger door (which I wasn't aware  
I had).  They thought that fixed it, yet I still have them after  
washing the car yesterday, and mainly when I run my hand under the  
driver side carpet after washing and slide it towards the center  
console area, the closer I get to the console, the wetter the carpet is.

At the advice of Ken K. I am going to make a deflector for the big  
opening/drain on the outside of the car in front of the windshield on  
the passenger side.  Hopefully somehow water is coming in there, and  
creating the deflector will shoot the water down farther away from  
the area where it might be leaking in.  I am sick of breathing the  
smell of damp carpet.

I have performed the factory water leak bulletins, caulked the t- 
panel, replaced door seals, etc, etc, etc.  Does ANYONE (vendors  
especially) recall anyone else having this problem in the past 24  
years, and can anyone else give me any other ideas as to where to  
look in the event that this deflector doesn't do the trick?  Keep  
your fingers crossed that it does, I have faith in Ken K.


A Very Frustrated Patrick C.
1880




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 17
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 22:31:17 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Steering rack boot installation

If the tie rod ends are tight (no play and they aren't flopping all
over the place) then there is no need to replace them, just replace
the boots. Clean them up nice first. Lubricate them too. Before
replacing the boots on the steering rack you should also make sure
everything is scrupulosly clean. Any dirt will grind up things inside.
If the boots have been torn for a long time and it is realy dirty the
rack should be pulled, cleaned thoughly, and relubricated before
putting the new boots on. If the rack is loose and sloppy you should
consider trading it for a rebuilt one. Driving a Delorean is a lot
more fun with a nice, tight steering system! There should be no play
or lost motion in the steering.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757 



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Joe OBrien" <joeyoseppijoe_at_dml_y...> wrote:

>> Thanks for all the answers,
>> 
>> Since I've still got the original tie rods on the car I might just 
>> replace them as well along with the boots. Then just get it aligned. 
>> Then it'll be done. For now  :-) 
>> 
>> Another "while I'm in there" job I guess.
>> 
>> 
>> Joe O'Brien







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 18
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:00:09 -0500
From: Greg Zapf <x86Daddy_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: LED Center Console Burnout

I had one of my white LEDs die on me...  I got it from Autolumination
before SuperbrightLEDs began carrying BA7s sized LEDs...  As it was
only one LED, I was more suspicious of the bulb than the car in that
case.  I had spares, so I just swapped in a new one.

--Greg
#2894

On 9/27/05, Rod Dillman <rhdillman_at_dml_yahoo.com> wrote:

>> I have had LEDs in my center console for about two years. I am having to replace them one or two bulbs at a time due to burnout. It is always the four top bulbs, never the three on the bottom. I used red bulbs on the bottom for the fan fail, door lock and rear window defrost. I used super white in the other four slots.  Has any one else had a problem with LED burnout?  I changed out my doors to LEDs at the same time and have had no problems there.  Thanks Rod 10921
>>





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 19
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:22:37 -0500
From: Greg Zapf <x86Daddy_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wiring in some extra juice

Wow... I think we've found another vehicle difference:  Mine has a
plastic panel as the ceiling of the battery compartment.  I've
uploaded a photo to the Yahoo group (last photo in main folder:
"#2894's battery box ceiling").  Here's an attempt at a link:

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/groups/g_1154320/__hr_%232894%27s+battery+box+ceiling.jpg?bcLddODBfbPNCnSr

That green stuff seems to be an epoxy of some sort.  So, does your D
have a plastic panel with a hole in it, or no plastic panel, or what?

--Greg
#2894

On 9/26/05, Ryan Wright <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com> wrote:

>> Greg,
>>
>
>>> > proof) from my battery's top post to this area, but I just found out
>>> > the entire battery area is enclosed in plastic and fiberglass...
>>> > pretty well sealed.
>
>>
>> Unless there are differences in vehicles, your eyes are playing tricks
>> on you. There is a link between the top of the battery compartment
>> (inside) and the fuse/relay area above it. Open both locations, shine
>> a bright flashlight into one of them and you should see light coming
>> through the other.
>>
>> It's a pretty big area, I could get my fingers through it, but then I
>> have small hands. There's a mess of wires in the fuse box area that
>> hide it pretty well.
>>





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 20
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 22:59:36 -0000
From: "Joe OBrien" <joeyoseppijoe_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: "Mock" DeLorean needed

Maybe they can use the cardboard Delorean that the Ohio State 
students made?  :-) 


-Joe O'Brien







--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Michael C. Babb" <mcbabb_at_dml_g...> wrote:

>> Interesting message I got this morning - Don't even know if anyone 

has 

>> anything like this:
>> 
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

>> 
>> I am in need of a mock DeLorean for a corporate event in March. I  
>> have to bring in two CEO's onto a stage, they exit the vehicle. A  
>> real DeLorean WILL NOT WORK. DO you have a fake one or one   

similar  

>> to the Back to the Future car?  It must be realistic. It can be one-

 

>> sided moving from Stage Left across  to Stage right. It can be  
>> propeled by manpower with rope or by battery operation (As in golf  
>> cart). Thank you in advance for your prompt response.
>> 
>> Tandy
>> 
>> T.J. Ecenia, President
>> 
>> TANDOVA, INC.
>> 6010 N. Armenia Ave.
>> Tampa, Fla.33604-5704
>> Ph:  813-877-6204
>> Fax: 813-877-3150
>> Tandova_at_dml_S...
>> www.SetsandProps.com








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 21
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:39:29 -0000
From: "Daniel" <dmcburn75_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Fiberglass cleaning

I would like to clean the fiberglass within the luggage compartment,
especially around the gas filler. Does anyone have a procedure for
detailing delorean fiberglass? Thanks in advance.

-Danny
4160






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 22
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 01:13:25 +0000
From: "Jeff Friday" <DeLorean_Type304_at_dml_msn.com>
Subject: RE: Cooling System Refilling

Bob,

Well as far as a "procedure" goes, all I do is just pour the stuff in and 
run the car, shut it down and bleed the system.  You can attach a long piece 
of hosing to the bleeder screw and slowly bleed the system of air while 
reclaiming the coolant but you need to do it several times after warming the 
car up to make sure you get it all out.

OR

You can install the Special T Auto Automatic Air Bleeder.  I and several 
local owners used it and it was a nice worry free product.

You really don't need the system to bleed ALL the time if it's properly 
sealed but hey, it's an easy install and you just fill the system and after 
running the car for a few minutes top it off to the hot level and put the 
cap back on or add the remaining coolant when the car cools down.  While 
performing the above procedure you can leave the cap off and watch the level 
in the bottle and add as necessary but I would not recommend opening the cap 
when the bottle is hot unless you bleed the air out first and relieve the 
pressure.

Jeff in NC



>>From: "Robert J. Wilson" <rjwilson62_at_dml_yahoo.com>
>>Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>>To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: [DML] Cooling System Refilling
>>Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:25:17 -0000
>>
>>Last week I re-charged the AC on my DeLorean and took it out for a
>>drive.  AC had not been operating for several months.  At a stop, I
>>let it idle for about two minutes and noticed that the temperature
>>gauge was just above the normal position.  It stayed there as I
>>drove another mile and then steam came from the engine compartment,
>>fogging the rear window.  I pulled over and shut it off right away.
>>The original plastic coolant overflow tank had ruptured down the
>>bottom seam and coolant was all over. (The car has 11,000 miles on
>>it.)
>>
>>Anyhow, I got it towed home and have ordered, received, and
>>installed a new stainless steel overflow tank.  I also have a
>>complete new hose kit but have only partially installed it. (Looks
>>like a real job - some are barely reachable!) I plan to test the car
>>with only a partial install of the new hoses since I now have
>>concerns that the fans are not working properly and I want to check
>>that out.
>>
>>I know from reading this web site that there is a special re-filling
>>procedure but could not find it last night in the shop manual.  Is
>>it in the shop manual and I'm not finding it?  If so, just tell me
>>where.  If it is not in the manual where can I find it?
>>
>>I'm reading all of the recent posts about "Fanzilla" and
>>alternatives.  Any advice here?  I have been told that hearing the
>>fans sequence on can easily be heard from the driver's seat,
>>specially with the window down.  I don't think I have ever heard
>>this.  The fans may never have came on!  (I have the two fuses in
>>the blue relay socket in the area behind the passenger seat.)
>>
>>Anyhow, that is where I am.  Thanks is advance for any help!
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Bob W.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>>moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>>
>>For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>>
>>To search the archives or view files, log in at 
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 23
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 01:13:06 -0000
From: "basfe25" <dmcman73_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Brake saga........

Ok, a while ago I posted that I was having front brake problems. A
reminder: Master cylinder is brand new, front calipers are rebuilt and
all lines are new. The only difference in the car is the fact that I
have the SS braided brake lines rather then the old rubber ones.

For the life of me....I can't get my front brakes to work!!! Rear
brakes work great but the fronts just won't clamp down and grab. At
first I though it was a defective Master cylinder so Rob at PJ Grady
exchanged it for me, still no luck. I next thought that maybe I didn't
rebuild the front calipers properly so I purchased a pair that were
rebuilt professionally, still won't work. I have gone through 6
bottles of brake fluid trying to bleed the system......still WON'T
work. Again, back brakes work great but the front won't work.

I've used compressed air in the system to see if there was blockage
and there wasn't, air moved through it freely with no restrictions. I
then connected my compressor to the end of the brake line that
connects to the master cylinder and shot some air in it, front brakes
grabbed the rotor tight.

What in the heck could it be???? I have tried to power bleed it,
gravity bleed it, brake pedal pump bleed it you name it! Maybe I am
not doing it right? I've rebuilt brake systems before on 8 other cars
and none ever gave me a problem like this. This is the most basic and
simple setup I have ever worked on.....can anyone help?







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 24
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 01:22:56 -0000
From: "delorean6859" <tmadsop_at_dml_comcast.net>
Subject: Your Delorean, terrorism and ebay

Catchy title, huh?  If you care about any of these issues and how they are related, read on.  It is going to be a long post but I think you will find it well worth the effort!

First, let me explain why you should listen to me.  I have experience investigating and prosecuting major frauds, including ebay as they relate to organized crime and terrorism.  I've used this experience in investigations involving several MILLION dollars in fraud loss and was involved in the 9/11 investigations.  I have also bought and sold cars on ebay as an ebay member and have experience now with their buyer protection program.  I have no problem discussing privately what I do for a living, all I ask is that you not discuss it, my name or employer in a public forum that will come up on a google search.

Like it or not, ebay is here to stay. It is a wonderful tool for the consumer.  The same thing that makes it great for the consumer also makes it ripe for criminals to exploit you. It's a fact, ebay has been used by organized groups to include terrorist organizations to raise significant capital for their operations.  Large purchases, such as automobiles and boats have the biggest return.  The only way to stop this is to know what to look for.  The Delorean is coming of age for collectors.  There have been a market increase in muscle cars from the 60's and 70's as a result of the baby boomer generation being in a position to afford the cars they grew up with.  As more "children of the 80's" age and become more successful, they too will be in a financial position to buy the 5elorean they've wanted ince being children, and drive the price up. This will also be combined with an increase in demand being generated by companies such as DMCH who are marketing the vehicle to a more affluent demographic.  Bottom line is Deloreans will increase significantly in value in the future, making it a bigger target for fraud and more people will become desperate to find one in their price range, and may overlook signs of a fraud to get one.

Rule#1 is that if it looks too good to be true.....it probably is a rip off. Be wary of the zero feedback seller, obviously.  A high feedback score does not necessarily mean it isn't a scam.  With the advent of the phishing scheme, account take overs are common. To combat this, look at the seller's previous items bought and sold.  If the person has a long history of buying knitting supplies and suddenly is selling a delorean....WARNING.  Another sign of this is the vehicle not being located near where the ebay seller is listed as living.  I expressed interest in a vehicle.  When I contacted the seller, they knew little technical info about it, were claiming to now be in europe and said it was now with a shipping company, prepaid and ready to ship.  They included a link to a website for the "shipping" company that looked legit.  A google search of that shipping company revealed no such company. The people created a realistic websit complete with invoice number so you could look up the status of the vehicle.  I searched that website, which even had links for employment opportunities for drivers.  The rates that drivers were listed as beinf paid were not cnsistant with industry practice, another indication the shipping company website was part of an elaborate fraud.

My recommendation is don't sell a vehicle to any entity outside the US. If a buyer or seller has no command of the english language, this is also a warning sign. Look at any correspondance with the person and make sure they have an understanding of the written english language. Insist on getting a telephone number and talk to them! Getting a telephone number also gives you a way to track a person down in the future should it turn into a criminal investigation.  Talk to the person and get a feel for them.  Better yet, have someone you lknow who has experience dealing with interrogation and interviewing (any cop with a couple of years working the road) talk to the person.  You will be shocked to see what someone with experience in thisfield will find out.

Maintain a database on ebay cars to include photos for several months prior to bidding to see if the pictures turn up in some other auction.  This also gives you the benefit of seeing the true going rate for vehicle's in various conditions and areas.  If you see the same vehicle listed several times by the same seller in a few months period, that car may be ripe for an off ebay offer!

Look for an email from a person claiming to be the original seller of an item you bid on and lost.  My recommendation is to have contacted the seller by email AND by phone prior to purchase.  Hold on to that info for later.  A person may contact you stating that the deal fell through and they are offering it to you.  If the email address is different then the email address you previously corresponded with, or they offer a different phone number or no phone number, stay away.  Contact the original email address from the seller and the original winner (from your  database) to find out if the car really is still available.  If it is legit, ask both parties of the sale why it fell through and compare answers.

Use google and zabasearch to run any info about the other party and see if they live near where this vehicle is being sold.  

If you are defrauded, good luck getting help.  These investigations are complex and time consuming.  Law enforcement is so overwhelmed with these right now, unless you produce an actual suspect or can show an organized enterprise, you may be out of luck.

I'll send an additional post on ebay buyer protection later.






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 25
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 01:58:55 -0000
From: "delorean6859" <tmadsop_at_dml_comcast.net>
Subject: ebay buyer protection

If you have been following the 6859 saga, you know I was sold a delorean listed in "excellent condition" and "needs nothing".  I won't bore you with details other then to say it needs everything.  As such, I filed a claim with ebay buyer protection who in turn assigned the case to auction insurance agency, an outside insurance agency.  Read the terms of the program closely, I'll hit the highlights.  I DID reach an agreement today with auction insurance which will result in a partial refund of the vehicle purchase price.

The program only covers specific areas of the vehicle. Cosmetic, suspension, brake, or items that don't materially effect the performance of the car are not covered.  Items covered include gross misrepresentation rsulting in a significant devaluation of the vehicle to include odometer misrepresentation (however they were unwilling to use this avenue as they said that there was no way of proving the extent of the odometer fraud.  Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that odometer fraud was designed to conceal the mileage of the vehicle.  They won't cover it because they can't determine the true mileage?). So what is left is damage to the frame NOT caused by rust, significant transmission or engine damage. Here's the catch, these items are only covered if they could not have been discovered during a reasonable inspection.  So follow me, major drivetrain damage is covered, but only if it is not readily apparent, and only if the car doesn't run properly (seeing the problem here). This may seem like a no win situation, however if you carefully read the policy and articulate why a claim should be covered using language quoted directly from the policy, you can get SOME settlement.  I was able to show the transmission problem was an intermittant problem yet still a significant defect, therefore unable to be detected during the initial inspection.  Here is another down side, I give up any legal claim for damages from the seller, even if it is for items not covered under the ebay buyer protection program. So the suspension, electrical, missing engine components, tires, trim, cosmetic damage is not covered nor can I file suit against the seller if I accept the settlement.  All legal claims for the vehicle are assigned to auction insurance agency for them to take whatever action they find necessary. So do your homework before the claim.  They will want estimates from repair facilities and that facility must personally inspect the vehicle (a little difficult in my case.  I found a repair facility that was willi!
 ng to gi
ve an estimate but said they wouldn't do the work). In this situation, auction insurance contacted the delorean vendors for input and reached a settlement figure based on the lowest possible estimate.    Don't get me wrong, the claims adjuster was a great guy and the program is better then nothing.  Had I conducted an off ebay tranaction, I wouldn't be getting anything right now.  They are a business that has a responsibility to minimize payouts.  If you articulate your claim correctly, you can maximize that payoff and minimize the pain of an ebay transaction gone sideways. Weigh the benefits of buying through ebay before finding a car on ebay and making an off ebay offer.  You could be giving up a valuable, albeit difficult service.






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    dmcnews-unsubscribe_at_dml_yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------