From: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 7:44 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 3037

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Hot Start Solution
From: "Eric Itzel" <ericsdmcmail_at_dml_seviernet.com>

2. Volvo style CPR
From: "Tom Tait" <TTait_at_dml_BRCWEB.com>

3. RE: Re: Hot Start Solution
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>

4. Re: Question for owners with issues.
From: "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_yahoo.com>

5. Re: Hot Start Solution
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>

6. Re: "performance air intake"
From: "wdwmk" <mroboto_at_dml_aol.com>

7. crumple tube.
From: "funkstuf" <funkstuf_at_dml_hotmail.com>

8. Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)
From: "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_yahoo.com>

9. Re: Trans problem-violent shake
From: "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>

10. Door Piston Holder
From: "dmcjosh85" <dmcjosh85_at_dml_yahoo.com>

11. Re: Replacing Delorean Steering Rack
From: Japheth Deaux <secret_jedi_guy_at_dml_yahoo.com>

12. DeLorean Rocks
From: "captain_hydrogen" <captainhydrogen_at_dml_cox.net>

13. ROOM RESERVATIONS PHEASANT RUN UPDATE
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com

14. RE: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)
From: "Tom Tait" <TTait_at_dml_BRCWEB.com>

15. Re: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)
From: "Robert Patz" <topgunster_at_dml_delorean.com>

16. Re: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)
From: "Marv Hein" <marvhein_at_dml_hotmail.com>

17. Re: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)
From: KiwiDean_at_dml_aol.com

18. RE: DeLorean Rocks
From: "Matt Carpenter" <mattdcarpenter_at_dml_msn.com>

19. Re: DeLorean Rocks
From: "Michael Babb" <mcbabb_at_dml_gmail.com>

20. Re: Re: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)
From: "Tom Niemczewski" <tomciodmc_at_dml_poczta.onet.pl>

21. Re: Question for owners with issues.
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_gmail.com>

22. Re: Volvo style CPR
From: Martin Gutkowski <martin_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

23. Re: Door Piston Holder
From: Martin Gutkowski <martin_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

24. Re: crumple tube.
From: Chris Murley <qumefox_at_dml_gmail.com>

25. Re: Question for owners with issues.
From: "Scot Stern" <Scotstern_at_dml_aol.com>





Message: 1
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:21:58 -0500
From: "Eric Itzel" <ericsdmcmail_at_dml_seviernet.com>
Subject: Re: Hot Start Solution

Hi Scot,

What kind of fuel pump do you have? Do you have the built-in check valve
type (old style longneck) or the removable check valve type (newer style)?
The old style pumps are prone to having their valves fail, allowing the fuel
to drain back into the tank from the line going to the accumulator. I had an
old style pump and that was my issue 3 years ago when I first got my car.

Just for my general knowledge, how could the electrical system cause a hot
start issue? To think that whenever it wants to some component will just get
pissed off and not work properly for no particular reason doesn't really
make much sense to me.

On a similar note, how can 1 fuel injector (going on a logical basis that
fuel injectors all can't go bad at the same time) cause an engine to not
want to restart after it's already been running? If it weeps at rest, then
it's line alone would be dry, not really considering the other 5 injectors
who are all ready to go. Somebody make me smarter- that doesn't make sense.

The hot start relay, if it works, will tell you that your problem is NOT
electrical- you are manually pumping fuel through the car with it engaged,
and that has nothing to do with the electrical ignition system.

With all due respect, please consider the fact that just because you can't
fix a problem, doesn't mean it's a design flaw overlooked years ago by a
group of moron engineers. As posted by others, the car is only a machine and
it once worked properly.

If you are superstitious and happen to be a beer drinker, drink a Guinness
then turn a wrench.

Good luck!

Eric Itzel
vin 4433

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scot Stern" <Scotstern_at_dml_aol.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 5:04 PM
Subject: [DML] Hot Start Solution


> OK, I have owned my Delorean for well over 10 years and it now has
> 12,200 miles on it.  I really like the car but I have spent way more
> than I should have on the proverbial "hot start" problem.
>
> 





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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:34:30 -0800
From: "Tom Tait" <TTait_at_dml_BRCWEB.com>
Subject: Volvo style CPR

I have temporarily installed a Volvo style CPR onto my engine as I was
checking the stock unit for problems.  Seems that both are fine, but I'm
curious, the Volvo unit does not have the vacuum fittings to take the
mix rich on acceleration.  Is this an emissions thing or performance?
Can I consider this unit a viable emergency spare for the car, or will
it damage it long term?





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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:54:14 -0600
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Hot Start Solution

Scott, See below:

-----Original Message-----
From: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com [mailto:dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Scot Stern
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 1:18 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Re: Hot Start Solution

John,

This group is really lucky to have people like you as a member.  Your 
assistance is always helpful and you are responsive to both your 
customers and the members that have not yet become your customers.  

My experiences with you have been nothing but favorable and I think 
that you are an oasis in the desert of misinformation.  Thanks!

I rally don't know if the accumulator was a new one or a NOS one.  
Don installed it so I really don't know.  

( The reason I mention this that NOS units with rubber diaphragms may go out
very quick if they hold up at all. Our units are brand new and we date them
as they go out for warranty sake.)

Any recommendations of where to get a CIS tester?  I really would 
like to solve this problem but I am terribly frustrated by my 
inability to do so.

( I sell as JC Whitney a CIS tester, but unless your going to be working on
cars all the time you may never use it again. I mentioned this because a
shop should do this to help find and tell you your going to have a since
pressure is leaking down.)  

On another note, I am not sure if this is the proper venue but is 
there an easy way to change the distributor cap?  I am thinking that 
it might be a good idea to change the distributor cap, coil and 
wires.  I am not sure if the wires were ever changed but I know that 
I did do the plugs. 

( Yes, but it will take about 30 minuets to get to it.) email mail or call
for detail instructions.)

I would like to change the coil but I really do not want to have to 
change the ECU or the resisters or modify the car to do so.  Any 
thoughts? 

( You don't have to do any changes or modifications to change the coil )

Thanks,

Scot Stern
6452 - 12,200 miles

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_s...> wrote:
>
> Scott, With a CIS tester you can very easily tell how the pressure 
on the
> system is bleeding down and without throwing a lot of parts at it 
you should
> be able to find the culprit. 




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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 01:28:07 -0000
From: "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Question for owners with issues.

Hello Robert,

I understand your criticism.  I have owned my Delorean for about 
two weeks now and am currently waiting for my workshop 
manual to be shipped out to me from the PO.  

After the car failed dthe first time I took it to DMC in garden grove. 
they adjusted the fuel mixture and checked the timing to be 
certain that they were in spec. It failed again after this checkup at 
which point I ordered the tuneup kit and a Cat and O2 sensor 
from john. Since installing these components the car it has been 
running really well, however STILL fails smog.  I will again be 
taking the car to Garden Grove, this time hopefully it will be fixed.

I guess my point is that when there is something beyond my 
understanding (Fuel Mixture/timing) I DO take it too the experts.  
Things like tuneups, electrical trouble shooting, etc I can do very 
well.  The Smog thing I can not figure out, and neither can a lot of 
other "experienced" people I have talked too. that is why I post 
here. I firmly believe in the power of on line forums like this one. 
Many people with many different experiences can voice their 
experience.  I then sift through and decide which apply to me.  If 
you have suggestions for how to better utilize this resource 
please let me know.

Nathan Sobieralski
2277

 --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "therealdmcvegas" 
<dmcvegas_at_dml_g...> wrote:
>
> Let me start off by saying that I am not intending for this post to 
be
> a flame. It's not an attack, just an honest question for people.
> 
> I've been pretty dormant on this, and other lists for a while now, 
but
> I have been reading some of the topics that have recently been
> discussed. Two in particular are regarding "valleyrat's" failed 
smog
> test, and Scott's Hot-Start issue. And I honestly have to ask 
this:
> 
> Do any of you own a Workshop Manual?




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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 01:47:57 -0000
From: "Harold McElraft" <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Re: Hot Start Solution

Replacing parts does not assure that a problem is solved. Some parts 
are defective, etc. The only way to identify the cause of a problem is 
to analyze it properly. DeLorean Motor Center has an excellent 
reputation. I'm sure they will stand behind their work. 

Sounds like the accumulator  I know it was replaced  still sounds 
like the accumulator. BTW, was the fuel pump relay replaced?

Harold McElraft - 3354


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Scot Stern" <Scotstern_at_dml_a...> wrote:
>
> OK, I have owned my Delorean for well over 10 years and it now has 
> 12,200 miles on it.  I really like the car but I have spent way more 
> than I should have on the proverbial "hot start" problem.  
> 









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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 02:08:28 -0000
From: "wdwmk" <mroboto_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Re: "performance air intake"

Again, I must say the ONLY reason I posted my experience with the air intake and it's vendor, was because another post specifically asked. My transaction with John transpired last March, however I never said a word on the DML about it. And to set the record straight, I did contact John about the first defective unit. And, then again the second unit's problem. His response was that it should fit, and if it does not, to try a bigger O ring. He markets this product as a DeLorean specific item, so I expected that it should fit an unmodified DeLorean. I did not return the second unit for a refund, because the next three calls to John were not returned.

Just as some of you have had positive experiences with him and have jumped to his defense, I have received several emails today from people who have had similar experiences to mine.  

When I read the post from the owner asking if anyone had experience with this product, I felt compelled to share mine. 
Would it be fair for me to sit back and stay silent when somebody was asking for others experience?

The question I posed regarding the liabilty insurance was simply to point out that if you do business with a one man band, they may not be around to support you when a problem does occur. I agree that EVERY company has QC issues from time to time, the real test is in how they fix problems after the sale. 

I am not interested in continuing this thread, I have said my piece. 
Buyer be ware. 

Merry Christmas,

Daniel Deutsch



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_s...> wrote:
>
> Daniel, 
> I will respond, but normally if someone has a problem with the product they
> come back to the vendor instead of attacking them and call the names over
> the DML. 




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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 02:16:15 -0000
From: "funkstuf" <funkstuf_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: crumple tube.

I just posted some pictures of crumple tube damage on a project 
Delorean I'm working on.  Interestingly enough, the rest of the frame 
has absolutely no rust anywhere and not even a crack in the epoxy.  I 
think this is a good example of what driving a Delorean a little too 
hard might result in.  Check it out in the Photo section. (VIN941)

Dale Funk
4984
941








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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 01:11:47 -0000
From: "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)

Hello gang,

Well, I am at wits end and more or less at the end of my 
mechanical ability. I performed a full tune up including new 
cap/rotor, wires, spark plugs, new cat, new O2 sensor. My car 
runs great, good acceleration, pretty good idle (hunts a little bit 
100 rpm or so) STILL FAILED SMOG!!

I am going to take the car the Garden Grove and have the guys 
do their thing again.  They are really nice and understanding 
about this whole thing I must say.  

Any more ideas out there? The smog tech said that he thought it 
could be a small timing problem or that the car was not totally 
warmed up.  I only failed the NOx portion again, barely. Ill post 
the results later tonight.   I thought NOX was from HIGH ignition 
temps, not from a cold engine.  BTW, none of these smog 
people have even seen a Delorean before; they look at it like it's 
a space ship or something.  Could they be doing the test 
wrong??  

Very frustrated

Nathan Sobieralski
2277








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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 03:29:54 -0000
From: "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_gmx.net>
Subject: Re: Trans problem-violent shake

This diagnosis cannot be correct. We did speak-on the phone, I also 
ordered a paper gasket for the rear cover as well, and was looking 
for the 2 washers (103203) for the final drive/differential which 
you were unable to find. Back when all this happened, there was too 
much oil leaking (not really leaking-but pouring) way too fast-
ruling out a bad seal. There was no way to continue driving like 
this-no oil in the transmission==seizing, and a badly slipping oil 
soaked clutch (which didn't shake the car violently or even at all). 

So, I did have to take out the transmission, split it (writing up a 
whole bunch of questions and posting them here-especially about what 
sealant to use to reassemble-thanks to the responses of you (Rob) 
and Dave Swingle, my transmission is now sealed up tight) finding 
that the cause of the massive oil leak was a large hole in the input 
shaft "guide tube". I did change all gaskets and seals (some I had 
on my shelf among my vast collection of DeLorean parts, some I 
ordered from you (Rob)) as well as lots of clips, pins, washers as 
well as both the shaft end lock nuts and of course, the input shaft 
guide tube. Again, this was all done months and months ago, along 
with replacing the rear main seal and the clutch disc. 
My transmission and engine both still fail to leak even a single drop 
of oil (very little seepage from 5th gear spring/ball plug is all I 
have). So, oil isn't the cause of this sudden problem. If I'm at a 
dead stop I have no choice but to start from second (I'd hate to 
crack a bracket), if I'm rolling I start in first, or second if I'm 
going fast enough for it. 

Mr. Hervey- I did replace the pilot 
bearing-I ordered it from you, as well as the rear main and gasket-
from advance auto. I keep forgetting to send you my clutch discs to 
get relined; I'll make a note of it and get them out soon. 
Mr. Teitelbaum- I had to change my positive battery cable so I looked at 
everything yesterday- all engine mounts, transmission mounts, and 
brackets are solid, crack free and tightly fastened. Clutch isn't 
worn out yet, and even though the input shaft splines were lubed 
prior to clutch installation-it can still be a cause. 

Rob Grady- 
even though the causing of this isn't a leaky input shaft tube seal- 
I appreciate you taking the time to write this up trying to help me-
thank you; and to everyone else whose been helping me try to 
identify the cause-thank you much! Looks like the only way to figure 
this out is to lower and pull back the transmission. Thanks again 
for all the input -----Dani B. #5003








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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:09:22 -0000
From: "dmcjosh85" <dmcjosh85_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Door Piston Holder

My situation is this: Where my drivers side gas strut ataches to the 
frame wiggles, infact its quite loose. I'm able to move it around a 
bit when the doors are open and I lift the door up myself even 
further. Doing the same on the passenger side is different, whereas 
since that door has been used less where its strut attaches to on the 
frame hardly moves at all even when I pick the door up beyond the lift 
weight. 

Being that for 25 years there has always been pressure applied to that 
bit Im wondering is there a way to fix this or is this somthing that 
should be replaced at some point in the deloreans lifetime?

~ Josh Tidwell
- 04463







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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:33:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Japheth Deaux <secret_jedi_guy_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Replacing Delorean Steering Rack

Mike,

Speaking from experience since I just replaced my
steering rack in July,  I would say that it is a
medium difficulty.  Mechanically it is not that
complex since there is no power steering pumps and
stuff to worry about.

It is best to put the car on a level surface and raise
it on jack stands.  You will deffinately want to
replace the tie rod ends as well unless the rubber
boots are still in good condition on them.

The difficulty involved comes with the loosening of 25
year old stuck parts.  GET A LOT OF PB BLASTER.  As
for the steps on how to remove and replace the old one
I will  refer you to this link.  Everything you need
to know is there and stepped out in order.  Have a
friend help as well.  whenever working under a car
always do it in pairs

http://www.dmcnews.com/Techsection/steeringrack.html 

Good luck

Japheth Deaux
VIN: 1223 "TYMACHN"

--- mike p <cambpd_at_dml_yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>   Can anyone please tell me the steps involved in
> replacing the STEERING  RACK on a Delorean?  Mine is
> shot, even thought the person who  sold me the car
> said it only had 40K miles on it!  
>   




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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 06:07:53 -0000
From: "captain_hydrogen" <captainhydrogen_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: DeLorean Rocks

I was poking around the internet and found a DeLorean link that I 
have not seen before.

www.deloreanrocks.com

It seems that if you have the car, now you can listen to the band.

I listened to a few track and except for the female vocals, they 
sounded kind of Journey-esk to me, not really my cup of tea, but 
certainly talented. Even though they are a lot mellower than my 
normal music listening, they did not put me to sleep. They certainly 
have captured the 1980's rock-ballad sound and for many DeLorean 
owners who appreciated that era of rock music, this band may capture 
your interest and may also signify the beginning of a revival of 
sorts.

I am also posting this for Ken Koncelik.  I know he is always looking 
for music for his driving tours as well as entertainers to perform on 
stage.  Since this June is his DeLorean Car Show, with a DeLorean 
Museum, and a DeLorean Raffle, then he may want to book DeLorean the 
band too.

Thank you,
Ben Ferguson (Captain Hydrogen)
Arizona DeLorean Club (www.az-d.org), Car Cruise Director - VIN 10365
American Hydrogen Association (www.clean-air.org), Board of 
Directors, 1996 - Present.







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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:43:26 EST
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: ROOM RESERVATIONS PHEASANT RUN UPDATE

There are three types of rooms at Pheasant Run 
 
The Tower rooms however at $124 (medium priced rooms) are now FULL.  
 
There are still the courtyard rooms _at_dml_ $114 per night and the Golf rooms _at_dml_  
$134 per night.
 
(Gary will you please mark the Tower rooms sold out on the web page.)
 
If you call and they say the rooms are sold out it is probably a new  
employee and we have had some issues with that.  You can e-mail Becky at 
_reservations_at_dml_pheasantrun.com_ (mailto:reservations_at_dml_pheasantrun.com)  and  they will 
return your call and get you a room.  There are still a  reasonable amount of rooms 
left but I do expect them to  go shortly. 
 
 
Ken
 
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:01:25 -0800
From: "Tom Tait" <TTait_at_dml_BRCWEB.com>
Subject: RE: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)

Timing could be your saving grace.  In two weeks the car (an '81 I
presume) will be 25 years old.  My understanding is that in CA if you
get a historic plate you do not need to pass smog.  Dealing with the DMV
will be a pain in the ass, but if your a AAA member they could likely
walk you through it.  With the large # of D's in CA I'd think someone
here would have a more informed answer as to if this is a possibility.

I'm in Burbank, contact me off list if you like, tell you where I AAA
and passed smog.

Tom
#10902


-----Original Message-----
From: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com [mailto:dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of valleyrat12
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 5:12 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)

Hello gang,

Well, I am at wits end and more or less at the end of my mechanical
ability. I performed a full tune up including new cap/rotor, wires,
spark plugs, new cat, new O2 sensor. My car runs great, good
acceleration, pretty good idle (hunts a little bit 100 rpm or so) STILL
FAILED SMOG!!

I am going to take the car the Garden Grove and have the guys do their
thing again.  They are really nice and understanding about this whole
thing I must say.  

Any more ideas out there? The smog tech said that he thought it could be
a small timing problem or that the car was not totally warmed up.  I
only failed the NOx portion again, barely. Ill post 
the results later tonight.   I thought NOX was from HIGH ignition 
temps, not from a cold engine.  BTW, none of these smog people have even
seen a Delorean before; they look at it like it's a space ship or
something.  Could they be doing the test wrong??  

Very frustrated

Nathan Sobieralski
2277








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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 15
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:24:44 -0000
From: "Robert Patz" <topgunster_at_dml_delorean.com>
Subject: Re: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)

Hi Nathan,

   Check with the Ca emissions to see what engine they put in the 
computer. When I had my car tested in Indiana the computer did not 
list a six cylinder for the DeLorean.   They just told me, it's not 
a six cylinder today.   Passed with no problem, also passed in 
Arizona too.


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_y...> 
wrote:
>
> Hello gang,
> 
> Well, I am at wits end and more or less at the end of my 
> mechanical ability. I performed a full tune up including new 
> cap/rotor, wires, spark plugs, new cat, new O2 sensor. My car 
> runs great, good acceleration, pretty good idle (hunts a little 
bit 
> 100 rpm or so) STILL FAILED SMOG!!
> 
> I am going to take the car the Garden Grove and have the guys 
> do their thing again.  They are really nice and understanding 
> about this whole thing I must say.  
> 
> Any more ideas out there? The smog tech said that he thought it 
> could be a small timing problem or that the car was not totally 
> warmed up.  I only failed the NOx portion again, barely. Ill post 
> the results later tonight.   I thought NOX was from HIGH ignition 
> temps, not from a cold engine.  BTW, none of these smog 
> people have even seen a Delorean before; they look at it like it's 
> a space ship or something.  Could they be doing the test 
> wrong??  
> 
> Very frustrated
> 
> Nathan Sobieralski
> 2277
>









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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 16
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:16:53 -0000
From: "Marv Hein" <marvhein_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)

According to his recent post, Chris Almy and I both failed our first 
smog tests due, most likely, to thermostats that were stuck open.  

We both passed on the second try. Mine was only twenty minutes 
later, as the guy at the second shop took so long trying to find the 
car in his computer ("Who makes that?") that the cooling fans came 
on.

Is your temp gauge is running right around the 1/4 mark?

Marv
#10820
AZ-D  

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_y...> 
wrote:
>
> Hello gang,
> 
> Well, I am at wits end and more or less at the end of my 
> mechanical ability. I performed a full tune up including new 
> cap/rotor, wires, spark plugs, new cat, new O2 sensor. My car 
> runs great, good acceleration, pretty good idle (hunts a little 
bit 
> 100 rpm or so) STILL FAILED SMOG!!
> 
> I am going to take the car the Garden Grove and have the guys 
> do their thing again.  They are really nice and understanding 
> about this whole thing I must say.  
> 
> Any more ideas out there? The smog tech said that he thought it 
> could be a small timing problem or that the car was not totally 
> warmed up.  I only failed the NOx portion again, barely. Ill post 
> the results later tonight.   I thought NOX was from HIGH ignition 
> temps, not from a cold engine.  BTW, none of these smog 
> people have even seen a Delorean before; they look at it like it's 
> a space ship or something.  Could they be doing the test 
> wrong??  
> 
> Very frustrated
> 
> Nathan Sobieralski
> 2277
>










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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 17
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:43:02 EST
From: KiwiDean_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)

Nathan,
 
I was at Garden Grove today getting my smog done.  Had no  trouble.  Dan and 
Don did a good job making sure my vehicle came up to  standard.  They should 
be able to do the same for you.....
 
Dean.
VIN #16259


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Message: 18
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:16:48 -0700
From: "Matt Carpenter" <mattdcarpenter_at_dml_msn.com>
Subject: RE: DeLorean Rocks

http://www.dolorean.com/   (Dolorean)

- Spelled differently but an amazing band from Portland!  I own their last 
two cd's and I recommend them if you like a country rock sound.

Cheers,

Matt Carpenter
5586
AZ-D.ORG


>From: "captain_hydrogen" <captainhydrogen_at_dml_cox.net>
>Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [DML] DeLorean Rocks
>Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 06:07:53 -0000
>
>I was poking around the internet and found a DeLorean link that I
>have not seen before.
>
>www.deloreanrocks.com
>
>It seems that if you have the car, now you can listen to the band.
>
>I listened to a few track and except for the female vocals, they
>sounded kind of Journey-esk to me, not really my cup of tea, but
>certainly talented. Even though they are a lot mellower than my
>normal music listening, they did not put me to sleep. They certainly
>have captured the 1980's rock-ballad sound and for many DeLorean
>owners who appreciated that era of rock music, this band may capture
>your interest and may also signify the beginning of a revival of
>sorts.
>
>I am also posting this for Ken Koncelik.  I know he is always looking
>for music for his driving tours as well as entertainers to perform on
>stage.  Since this June is his DeLorean Car Show, with a DeLorean
>Museum, and a DeLorean Raffle, then he may want to book DeLorean the
>band too.
>
>Thank you,
>Ben Ferguson (Captain Hydrogen)
>Arizona DeLorean Club (www.az-d.org), Car Cruise Director - VIN 10365
>American Hydrogen Association (www.clean-air.org), Board of
>Directors, 1996 - Present.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
>For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>
>To search the archives or view files, log in at 
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 19
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:11:09 -0500
From: "Michael Babb" <mcbabb_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: DeLorean Rocks

have posted on their website before - waiting for them to post new shows as 
they are in the same town I am an, and thought it would be fun to drive the 
DeLorean . .

Michael

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "captain_hydrogen" <captainhydrogen_at_dml_cox.net>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 1:07 AM
Subject: [DML] DeLorean Rocks


>I was poking around the internet and found a DeLorean link that I
> have not seen before.
>
> www.deloreanrocks.com
>
> It seems that if you have the car, now you can listen to the band.
>
<SNIP> 






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Message: 20
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:00:49 +0100
From: "Tom Niemczewski" <tomciodmc_at_dml_poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Re: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)

Hi

Do they have different standards for different engines? That would be 
strange. I've have never heard of that.... As far as I know (I might be 
wrong) the standard is the same regardless of engine size and number of 
cylinders. When I used to live in FL I went to get my emissions tested and I 
asked them what the max numbers are. They were all the same for all cars. I 
can still remember those numbers :) NOx: 220ppm, CO: 1.20%. Here in Poland 
when I went to get the DeLorean tested they told me that the allowed limits 
are NOx:100 and CO: 0.50%. And I was pretty surprised when we tested the 
car. I got remarkable results. Even the guys at the testing station were 
surprised. When I did the test it was snowing outside with the temperature 
just below freezing. I drove the car only about 3 miles and it was NOT fully 
warm. I've got NOx: 4 and CO: 0.00% This is what everyone should be getting. 
The DeLorean is a VERY clean running car... if everything is working right.

Tom Niemczewski
vin 6149 (in Poland!)
tomciodmc_at_dml_poczta.onet.pl
www.deloreana.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Patz"
>
>   Check with the Ca emissions to see what engine they put in the
> computer. When I had my car tested in Indiana the computer did not
> list a six cylinder for the DeLorean.   They just told me, it's not
> a six cylinder today.   Passed with no problem, also passed in
> Arizona too.
>





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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 21
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:07:16 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Question for owners with issues.

No problem. All we need to do here is a little bit of proper 
troubleshooting, and I'm sure that your issue is easily resolvable. 
In the process however, forgive me if this post starts to sound a bit 
juvenile. It's not my intention. I just want to explain things of how 
I would troubleshoot your issue, in as simple of terms as possible...




Let's start with what we know to be true about the situation, and 
work our way backwards from there to diagnose what the problem really 
is that's causing the issue.

The issue here is that your car will not pass an emissions test. 
Specificly, the NOx levels are too high, but the CO dilution, and HC 
levels are acceptable.

From this alone, we know that the Catalytic Convertor on the car is 
working properly. Otherwise, you would have failed the O2 & HC 
dilution levels portion of the test.

We know that an engine tuned to factory spec will pass emissions 
properly. But we have to figure out what variables may come into play 
that would negate those factory settings. We have two options here.
Option 1: Start from scratch, replace EVERY component, and *hope* 
that we happen to fix the issue in the process. The Cons of course 
are that we may not resolve the issue, it's wasteful because we're 
replacing good parts, and it's expensive.
Option 2: Work backwards to diagnose the issue, pinpoint the culprit, 
and resolve it from there. The Cons are that it's just time 
consuming. But it will save you allot of money in the long run, as 
well as many headaches of trying to figure out what the issue is, 
when a "blanket repair" fails.

Now I'm not from Missouri, but I do like to to see things for myself. 
However, we'll go ahead and say that DMC-GG did infact properly set 
the CO mixture, and engine timing properly. After all, we don't have 
any reason to doubt them.

Still, the engine doesn't pass. You have performed a tune-up, and 
even replaced the Catalytic Covertor. Still you don't pass.

Now let's take a step back to square one where we started out at. 
Your NOx emissions levels are too high, even after the work performed 
thus far. So, let's take a look here real quick like:

http://capita.wustl.edu/CAPITA/CapitaReports/EmisTrends/soxnemc.html

Now we know that high combustion temperatures are what cause NOx 
emissions. So what causes a high combustion temps?

The first item is if the engine is running too lean. Now we know that 
a CO adjustment was already performed, so the Air/Fuel ratio has 
already been adjusted properly. But a vacuum leak could also throw 
that mixture off, by introducing unmetered air into the system and 
causing a lean-burn condition (higher combusion temps). So now, we've 
got to check for a vacuum leak. To do so, grab a can of starter 
fluid. Pull a hose off of the Cold Start Tube, and spray some in. If 
the engine idle starts to rev up, then we know that there is a vacuum 
leak somewhere. If not, reconnet the hose, and spray around it, to 
make sure that it's not the culprit.

Now, if a vacuum leak is discovered, repair it, ensure it's gone, and 
start all over again with readjusting the CO mixture, and test again.

If no vacuum leak is detected, then we have to continue on...

One band-aid option is to simply retard the ignition. But we don't 
really want to do that. It's not a factory specification, so the 
engine will not run optimally. Also, it may lead to improper 
combustion, and could adversely affect the other emissions readings.

So what do we do. Well, we know that the engine is running to spec, 
and is in tip-top shape. Perfomance is good, I imagine that your fuel 
economy is also good too. However, we've still got high NOx levels in 
the exhaust. We know that it's caused by high combustion chamber 
temperatures...

Carbon build up. Carbon build up is bad, as you know. Carbon is an 
engine deposit that attaches itself inside of the valves, and the 
combustion chamber. It's bad because it heats up, and will stay hot. 
If there is too much carbon present, it will ignite the fuel, and 
will cause it pre-detonate, before the sparkplug can ignite it at the 
correct time. Carbon also doesn't disappate heat as quickly as the 
iron and aluminum pistons of the engine, so it stays hotter...

Your car has a history of an owner fueling up with too high of an 
octance gasoline. If the octane is too high, it can't fully burn, and 
thus carbon deposits are left behind over time.

It may be entirely possible that you have significant carbon build up 
inside the engine. Not so much that you're getting a pre-detonation 
knock, but enough that the combustion chambers cannot disappate heat 
fast enough, and are in turn keeping those temperatures higher inside 
the engine.

To help get rid of carbon build up, Techron is a great fuel 
detergent. A good dosage, along with some prolonged use of Chevron 
gas will help to give the engine a good cleaning out.

So what other alternative do you have to reduce combustion chamber 
temperatures? Simple! Click on this link, and scroll to the bottom:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/ignition-system2.htm

By using colder spark plugs, there is a good chance that you'll be 
able to reduce the combustion temperatures, and reduce the NOx levels 
as well. I know that switching to 2 levels colder of a plug, I was 
able to get rid of a mild knock that my engine had.




Now I hope this helps you out a bit. Like I said before, I wasn't 
writing this with a condecending tone. I just wanted to explain as 
simply as I could what troubleshooting steps I use, and how I would 
have adapted them to your issue.

Quick and dirty answer: Get some colder spark plugs, and a big bottle 
of techron. Drive around at least 1 tank, and test the car again.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_y...> 
wrote:
>
> Hello Robert,
> 
> I understand your criticism.  I have owned my Delorean for about 
> two weeks now and am currently waiting for my workshop 
> manual to be shipped out to me from the PO.  
> 
> After the car failed dthe first time I took it to DMC in garden 
grove. 
> they adjusted the fuel mixture and checked the timing to be 
> certain that they were in spec. It failed again after this checkup 
at 
> which point I ordered the tuneup kit and a Cat and O2 sensor 
> from john. Since installing these components the car it has been 
> running really well, however STILL fails smog.  I will again be 
> taking the car to Garden Grove, this time hopefully it will be 
fixed.
> 
> I guess my point is that when there is something beyond my 
> understanding (Fuel Mixture/timing) I DO take it too the experts.  
> Things like tuneups, electrical trouble shooting, etc I can do very 
> well.  The Smog thing I can not figure out, and neither can a lot 
of 
> other "experienced" people I have talked too. that is why I post 
> here. I firmly believe in the power of on line forums like this 
one. 
> Many people with many different experiences can voice their 
> experience.  I then sift through and decide which apply to me.  If 
> you have suggestions for how to better utilize this resource 
> please let me know.
> 
> Nathan Sobieralski
> 2277







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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 22
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:53:40 +0000
From: Martin Gutkowski <martin_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Volvo style CPR

The breather port on the top is actually the vac enrichment and is 
permanently connected, though the enrichment is marginal compared to the 
DeLorean's 066, which only does anything when cold.

The warm up cycle and pressures are the same so it won't do any harm. 
You will probably find the car doesn't like revving from cold.

(this is the 038 type CPR)

Martin

Tom Tait wrote:

>I have temporarily installed a Volvo style CPR onto my engine as I was
>checking the stock unit for problems.  Seems that both are fine, but I'm
>curious, the Volvo unit does not have the vacuum fittings to take the
>mix rich on acceleration.  Is this an emissions thing or performance?
>Can I consider this unit a viable emergency spare for the car, or will
>it damage it long term?
>
>  
>






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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 23
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:06:07 +0000
From: Martin Gutkowski <martin_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Door Piston Holder

Oh Dear

We had a similar problem with a customer's car which had the passenger 
side mount completely pulled out taking probably three square inches of 
glass with it and leaving a gaping hole. The root cause was a 
combination of three things. 1) Struts with ball joints that were too 
long, 2) the fibreglass was very poor with about 3mm of gelcoat and only 
a couple of layers of glass and 3) Blokie at the factory putting the 
mount in 1/2" closer to the hinge than on the opposite side!

I had a set of Rob Grady's strengtheners but the condition of the 
fibreglass was such that these didn't work at all - I think they're 
designed for one that moves but hasn't come out completely! In the end, 
we subbed out the car to a Lotus specialist who ended up cutting that 
section of the roof away (quarter panel and roof plus all the trim and 
interior quarter removed) and reconstructing the fibreglass with a steel 
bar reinforcing that whole top corner. It was not possible to move the 
mount further in given the nature of the repair and we turned down the 
ball joints on the replacement strut to shorten it by 2mm each end (even 
our struts had ends that were too long). The repair was absolutely 
beautiful and you can rock the whole car on that mount now.

It was a big job. You may be lucky and can just strengthen it using 
Rob's kit.

Martin
DMC Ltd
www.delorean.co.uk

dmcjosh85 wrote:

>My situation is this: Where my drivers side gas strut ataches to the 
>frame wiggles, infact its quite loose. I'm able to move it around a 
>bit when the doors are open and I lift the door up myself even 
>further. Doing the same on the passenger side is different, whereas 
>since that door has been used less where its strut attaches to on the 
>frame hardly moves at all even when I pick the door up beyond the lift 
>weight. 
>
>Being that for 25 years there has always been pressure applied to that 
>bit Im wondering is there a way to fix this or is this somthing that 
>should be replaced at some point in the deloreans lifetime?
>
>~ Josh Tidwell
>- 04463
>
>  
>






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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 24
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:48:15 -0600
From: Chris Murley <qumefox_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: crumple tube.

funkstuf wrote:

>I just posted some pictures of crumple tube damage on a project 
>Delorean I'm working on.  Interestingly enough, the rest of the frame 
>has absolutely no rust anywhere and not even a crack in the epoxy.  I 
>think this is a good example of what driving a Delorean a little too 
>hard might result in.  Check it out in the Photo section. (VIN941)
>
>Dale Funk
>4984
>941
>
>
>  
>
Hmm  Interesting pics but it looks to me like this particular car never 
recieved the extra bracing for the crumple tube that there was a recall 
for. And I imagine that this was the type of thing the recall was issued 
for to begin with. I know 3209 had them installed. But I don't think 
it'd had the recall for moving the inerta switch done. As it's still 
located by the lambda counter on mine. I was planning on going through 
the recall list as I slowly reassemble my car to make sure everything on 
the list has been tended to.

-- 

Chris
VIN# 03209
http://badger.brazi.net/index.pl/delorean





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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 25
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 00:50:03 -0000
From: "Scot Stern" <Scotstern_at_dml_aol.com>
Subject: Re: Question for owners with issues.

Robert,

Thank you for your response to my problem concerning the hot start.  
Frankly, after reading it several times, it is in my opinion clearly 
an attack / flame post.

I find it interesting that nine people responded on the board to the 
problem and another five emailed me directly to indicate that they 
had similar situations without much resolve.  Apparently, I am not 
the "Lone Ranger" when it comes to hot start problems.

Yes, I do have a manual and I find it to be of little help which is 
why I enlisted the aid of the board to see if they had any practical 
experience that they could share.  The manual is wonderful 
scintillating reading if you want to know where the engine is located.

You say that hot start problems are not normal for the Delorean yet 
the posts on this board say otherwise.  To confirm this, I took the 
car to a recognized reputable vendor over five times to try and have 
this issue resolved.  He replaced the fuel pump, accumulator, and 
fuel distributor and still this car will not start when the engine is 
hot!  He was stumped and offered no further solution.

This has nothing to do with the outside temperature so, seeing cars 
start in triple digit weather really is not germane.  The problem can 
happen in any ambient temperature and is solely affected by leaving 
the car for a short period of time after it has run and then trying 
to restart it.

I have owned many fuel injected engines in airplanes, cars, boats and 
other watercraft and this car is the only one that will not start 
when it is heat soaked.  I have seen similar situations with airplane 
engines and you simply "boost pump" it to re-pressurize the injectors 
and it starts.

Now, if you read your own board, you will see that people have 
suggested that I change a relay, re-change the accumulator, change 
the O rings, change the fuel distributor the check valve and the fuel 
pump.  It is interesting to me that no one seems to agree on 
specifically what is wrong and what I should change. I did learn, as 
a result of these posts that it could be a relay which I had not 
heard before, and candidly that was the purpose of asking.  I wanted 
to ascertain if there were any other view points on this problem.

Lastly, the suggestion of the switch came from one of your esteemed 
members not from my imagination.  I thought that at least this would 
offer some piece of mind until I could find a more permanent method 
of fixing the problem.

One very nice vendor suggested that I get a CIS device and I asked if 
there was somewhere special to get one of these and there were three 
answers.  It appears that this subject was also of interest to all 
concerned.

Robert, I really don't know why you are bitter about someone asking 
for assistance.  Fortunately, the Delorean is not the only car that I 
own and I do not depend upon it for daily transportation.  It is 
simply a "toy" and while I would like to have it operate properly I 
am not convinced that it is as simple a problem as you seem to think 
that it is.  Apparently, judging by the posts and the private emails 
that I got many others seem to agree.

As another thoguht, from my perspective, I do not consider a Delorean 
to be a high-end car.  I have several others that might be closer to 
that status but yet, that is only relative as what I would think to 
be high-end, Bill Gates probably would not.

Robert, since you are apparently the self-appointed moderator of the 
DMC board, maybe you should post what we can or can't talk about so 
that the rules are clear to all concerned.

Please cherish this post as my last contribution as I did find your 
post offensive and aggressive. Fortunately, not being able to post on 
this board will not place undue hardship on me or the ownership of my 
car. 

Lasty, any automobile that has as many posts as the Delorean car 
seems to have that relate to the car simply starting when it is hot, 
must have a design flaw somewhere.  Think about it......       



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_g...> 
wrote:
>
> Let me start off by saying that I am not intending for this post to 
be
> a flame. It's not an attack, just an honest question for people.
> 
> I've been pretty dormant on this, and other lists for a while now, 
but
> I have been reading some of the topics that have recently been
> discussed. Two in particular are regarding "valleyrat's" failed smog
> test, and Scott's Hot-Start issue. And I honestly have to ask this:
> 
> Do any of you own a Workshop Manual?
> 
> Allot of questions that I'm seeing on here are uber-simple ones that
> should already have been obvious with a workshop manual, and a 
little
> automotive know how.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that everyone here
> should be at the level of an ASE mechanic. After all, this is a 
forum
> for DIY'ers seeking help. But if you're asking about an engine 
running
> lean, and you've not yet hit it with a timing light, then let's 
take a
> step back, and even ask how to do that, before tearing your exhaust
> system apart to shine a light into the Catalytic Convertor.
> 
> Hot Start problems are NOT normal on the DeLorean, or any car that
> uses a K-Jetronic fuel injection system. I've seen DeLoreans fire-up
> in triple digit heat, and have only taken about a second-long turn 
of
> the key to do so. For a beater Volvo that ends up on some
> "Buy-Here/Pay-Here" car lot in the middle of the ghetto, yes, the
> Hot-Start relay is needed, because it's assumed that people will NOT
> properly maintain these cars in the long run. For a high-end car 
such
> as the DeLorean, it's assumed that proper maintenance will negate 
the
> installation of a band-aid remedy.
> 
> Now I know that sounds a bit harsh. And I wouldn't normally be so
> frank in my words for someone who is still getting familiar with 
their
> car. But 10 YEARS and you still have this issue?    Even if you're 
not
> handy with a wrench, I can understand. But at the very least, be 
more
> aggressive with your mechanic and demand that the issue you paid for
> to be resolved, gets properly taken care of. Especially if you're
> already armed with the knowlege of how the affected system(s) 
function.
> 
> Like I say, I've seen DeLoreans fire up in all sorts of weather, and
> not have an issue. So this is NOT a "design flaw" with the DeLorean
> car itself. If there is any flaw in this case, it's flawed diagnotic
> procedure that's been performed on your car by both your mechanic, 
AND
> by you (that "design flaw" statement is insulting to me, and other
> owners who's cars operate properly). It's a machine, not a deity.
> Money means nothing to it. So throwing cash at the car's issue(s) 
will
> not appease the gremlins inside, and make the issue magicly go away.
> 
> You've got two potential issues: 1. Electrical, or 2. Fuel Pressure.
> And if it is Fuel Pressure related (as it typicly is), you need to
> perform the proper diagnotic procedure to determine it as such. THEN
> determine what has to be replaced, and start the diagnosis procedure
> over again if it's still not resolved.
> 
> I don't care if you buy *new* stuff from John Hervey, or 25 year old
> *NOS* parts from DMCH. Age has nothing to do with the fact that some
> parts may leave the factory defective. So just because it was 
replaced
> once, doesn't mean that the new part is any better off than the
> *defective* one you replaced. Assuming of course that proper
> troubleshooting is what determined it to be bad in the first place.
> 
> You have 5 components of the Fuel Injection system that are
> responsible for maintaining fuel pressure while the system is at 
rest.
> Performing the reccomending system test will help you determine 
which,
> if any, of these components are at fault.
> 
> Now I know that this post has sounded a bit mean, but believe me, 
it's
> more of a "tough love" message here. My solution for you isn't to 
take
> the car into a vendor to get the issue fixed. No, I think that it's
> high time you hunker down, and bust a few knuckles fixing the issue
> yourself. Unless someone doesn't have a cost-prohibative tool (ie.
> alignment rack, exhaust gas analyser), or they lack valuable
> experience in a particular area (ie. MVAC, or electronics repair) 
that
> requires the use of a vendors services, there is no reason that 
people
> shouldn't be working on their cars themselves. Even if you're tight 
on
> workspace where you can tear the car apart, you need to at least be
> able to partially diagnose the issue yourself, and talk it over with
> your mechanic.
> 
> -Robert
> vin 6585 "X"
>








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