From: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 3:27 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 3038

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Any NJ DeLoreans available on Thursday in the AM?
From: "Josh Haldeman" <jhaldeman_at_dml_fuse.net>

2. RE: Volvo style CPR
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>

3. RE: Volvo style CPR
From: "Joseph Kuchan" <josephkuchan_at_dml_hotmail.com>

4. RE: Re: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)
From: "Tom Tait" <TTait_at_dml_BRCWEB.com>

5. My starting issues Re: Question for owners with issues.
From: "Dan" <djdanwilson_at_dml_yahoo.com>

6. Re: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)
From: darkstarmedia_at_dml_comcast.net

7. Re: Update On Used Parts For Sale
From: whocruiser_at_dml_aol.com

8. Re: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)
From: "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_yahoo.com>

9. Re: Question for owners with issues.
From: "Joe OBrien" <joeyoseppijoe_at_dml_yahoo.com>

10. Re: Question for owners with issues.
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_gmail.com>

11. Re: crumple tube.
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>

12. RE: Re:Possible fuel leak-down problem
From: <rob_at_dml_pjgrady.com>

13. Of vague interest to Delorean owners...
From: "Paul Dmytrewycz" <pauld_at_dml_pauld.net>

14. RE: Door Piston Lwr Support Brackets
From: <rob_at_dml_pjgrady.com>

15. Re: Trans problem-violent shake
From: "Jim Reeve" <dmc6960_at_dml_gmail.com>

16. Re: crumple tube.
From: Martin Gutkowski <martin_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

17. Re: Re: Question for owners with issues.
From: Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>

18. Back to the Future 4!
From: "John Dore" <dmcjohn_at_dml_hotmail.com>

19. Re: My starting issues Re: Question for owners with issues.
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net

20. Re: Question for owners with issues.
From: "turbodelorean" <dmcfan_at_dml_hotmail.com>

21. Re: Of vague interest to Delorean owners...
From: DMCVIN6683 <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>

22. Happy new owner (passed smog today!)
From: "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_yahoo.com>

23. Re: Re: Failed emmissions AGAIN - really long
From: "Tom Niemczewski" <tomciodmc_at_dml_poczta.onet.pl>

24. Re: Re: Question for owners with issues.
From: <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>

25. Re: Back to the Future 4!
From: "Mike" <milesperhour79_at_dml_yahoo.com>





Message: 1
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:49:42 -0500
From: "Josh Haldeman" <jhaldeman_at_dml_fuse.net>
Subject: Any NJ DeLoreans available on Thursday in the AM?

Hey Guys,

Flavia and I are having our civil wedding ceremony in New Jersey this coming Thursday, and then we are moving her to Cincinnati.  Because of the move I can't bring my DeLorean.  Anyone in or around the Bridgewater area want to join us with their DeLorean Thursday morning at 11am?  

Short ceremony followed immediately by a reception at Flavia's house.  I'm too poor to offer any money, but you're welcome to all the free food you can eat if you can help us out.  If interested, contact me off list at jhaldeman(AT)fuse.net and I'll give you the details.

Thanks for your consideration,
Josh

PS- We are still doing the big DeLorean gathering thing at the ceremony in May in Cincinnati...this is just the legal part this week.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:33:18 -0600
From: "John Hervey" <john_at_dml_specialtauto.com>
Subject: RE: Volvo style CPR

Tom, What are the last 3 numbers stamped into the case on top.
John
I can look it up to see how much it differs.


-----Original Message-----
From: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com [mailto:dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Tom Tait
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 6:35 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Volvo style CPR

I have temporarily installed a Volvo style CPR onto my engine as I was
checking the stock unit for problems.  Seems that both are fine, but I'm
curious, the Volvo unit does not have the vacuum fittings to take the
mix rich on acceleration.  Is this an emissions thing or performance?
Can I consider this unit a viable emergency spare for the car, or will
it damage it long term?





To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:02:23 -0600
From: "Joseph Kuchan" <josephkuchan_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Volvo style CPR

It is primarily a performance thing. That acceleration enrichment feature is 
disabled after the car warms up. It is there because cold engines need a 
richer mixture to run properly because fuel condenses on cold cylinder walls 
(and intake manifolds) resulting in an effectively leaner mixture. The 
"extra" enrichment just helps give the power it needs to accelerate properly 
when it is cold. I don't think it will adversely affect emissions if it is 
not there, but you will probably not have optimum acceleration when your car 
is cold.

-Joe Kuchan


>From: "Tom Tait" <TTait_at_dml_BRCWEB.com>
>Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [DML] Volvo style CPR
>Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:34:30 -0800
>
>I have temporarily installed a Volvo style CPR onto my engine as I was
>checking the stock unit for problems.  Seems that both are fine, but I'm
>curious, the Volvo unit does not have the vacuum fittings to take the
>mix rich on acceleration.  Is this an emissions thing or performance?
>Can I consider this unit a viable emergency spare for the car, or will
>it damage it long term?
>
>
>
>
>
>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
>For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>
>To search the archives or view files, log in at 
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>






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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:08:52 -0800
From: "Tom Tait" <TTait_at_dml_BRCWEB.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)

In CA they have different limits for every car/engine.  The Delorean is in
the CA dabase as a 2.9 liter V6.

NO must be less than 1136 at 15mph and less than 966 at 25mph, at least for
my '81.

Tom
10902

-----Original Message-----
From: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com [mailto:dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Tom Niemczewski
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 2:01 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DML] Re: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)

Hi

Do they have different standards for different engines? That would be 
strange. I've have never heard of that.... As far as I know (I might be 
wrong) the standard is the same regardless of engine size and number of 
cylinders. When I used to live in FL I went to get my emissions tested and I

asked them what the max numbers are. They were all the same for all cars. I 
can still remember those numbers :) NOx: 220ppm, CO: 1.20%. Here in Poland 
when I went to get the DeLorean tested they told me that the allowed limits 
are NOx:100 and CO: 0.50%. And I was pretty surprised when we tested the 
car. I got remarkable results. Even the guys at the testing station were 
surprised. When I did the test it was snowing outside with the temperature 
just below freezing. I drove the car only about 3 miles and it was NOT fully

warm. I've got NOx: 4 and CO: 0.00% This is what everyone should be getting.

The DeLorean is a VERY clean running car... if everything is working right.

Tom Niemczewski
vin 6149 (in Poland!)
tomciodmc_at_dml_poczta.onet.pl
www.deloreana.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Patz"
>
>   Check with the Ca emissions to see what engine they put in the
> computer. When I had my car tested in Indiana the computer did not
> list a six cylinder for the DeLorean.   They just told me, it's not
> a six cylinder today.   Passed with no problem, also passed in
> Arizona too.
>





To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at
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Yahoo! Groups Links



 







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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 04:13:25 -0000
From: "Dan" <djdanwilson_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: My starting issues Re: Question for owners with issues.

Here's my version of the "hot start" issue.

I usually only drive the car on Saturdays, to and from cruise-ins. So,
it generally sits for one week at a time with the battery cut off.
When I get in the car after one week of sitting and turn on the juice,
then turn the key, the engine starts so quickly that you almost don't
have a chance to hear the starter. I mean, it's instant. So, I drive
it to the show 16 miles away and park it, leaving the battery
connected. The car usually sits for six to ten hours, giving the
engine time to thoroughly cool. When I go to leave the show, and turn
the key, the engine will take much more time to start. The starter
will crank for three to five seconds before finally starting. No
longer the instant "snap" start. This is usually the case. First start
after a one week sit, instant start, but every start following,
whether the engine has cooled off or still warm is slow. Even if I
bring it home Sat. night, cut the juice, then drive it to breakfast on
Sunday morning, still slow to start. One to two weeks seems to be the
magic window for an initial quick start. Three weeks, and that's a
whole different story. Then it becomes very difficult to start.
Usually takes two or three tries of cranking the starter five to seven
seconds at a time before it will finally start, and once started it
runs kinda rough for a few minutes, like it's "stiff". It's never sat
longer than that during the year I've had it. I'm afraid it would
simply not start if not driven for a month. Now if I know I won't be
taking the car out on a particular weekend, I still go down to my
garage and start it and let it run for five or so minutes. This seems
to keep it happy for the following week.

Don't know if any of this is related to the hot start issue, or
whether it's different issues depending on the length of time sitting.
Any of this sound familiar to anybody?

Dan W.
VIN 16192
AZ-D








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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 03:04:21 +0000
From: darkstarmedia_at_dml_comcast.net
Subject: Re: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)

I still think you should turn your mixture adjustment screw a hair richer.  It doesn't take much to change the mixture a lot.

Darkstar
 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_yahoo.com>
> Hello gang,
> 
> Well, I am at wits end and more or less at the end of my 
> mechanical ability. I performed a full tune up including new 
> cap/rotor, wires, spark plugs, new cat, new O2 sensor. My car 
> runs great, good acceleration, pretty good idle (hunts a little bit 
> 100 rpm or so) STILL FAILED SMOG!!
> 
> I am going to take the car the Garden Grove and have the guys 
> do their thing again.  They are really nice and understanding 
> about this whole thing I must say.  
> 
> Any more ideas out there? The smog tech said that he thought it 
> could be a small timing problem or that the car was not totally 
> warmed up.  I only failed the NOx portion again, barely. Ill post 
> the results later tonight.   I thought NOX was from HIGH ignition 
> temps, not from a cold engine.  BTW, none of these smog 
> people have even seen a Delorean before; they look at it like it's 
> a space ship or something.  Could they be doing the test 
> wrong??  
> 
> Very frustrated
> 
> Nathan Sobieralski
> 2277
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> 
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
> 
> To search the archives or view files, log in at 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 






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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:32:13 EST
From: whocruiser_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Update On Used Parts For Sale

 
 
Auctions on these items ends Wednesday morning, very little bidding action  
so far, one fascia at minimum $99 bid, nothing on the other two items.   Might 
be a real bargain for someone who needs them now, or someday  might...

 
 
In a message dated 12/18/2005 10:36:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
WhoCruiser writes:

Hi everyone -
 
I had a few interested people contact me on the front & rear fascias  and the 
sunshade that I offered here on the Yahoo Groups list last week, but  no firm 
offers, so they are now up on e-bay, with opening minimum bid prices  of $99 
each and no reserve.  I want to sell them quickly and need to ship  them 
before Christmas, so these are only 3 day auctions - act now and you  could get a 
good bargain.  Here are the item numbers and e-bay page links  for each:
 

Front Fascia:  item #  4598720122
_http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29296-2357-0?uid=758765&site=0&ver=LCA080805&it
em=4598720112&lk=URL_ 
(http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29296-2357-0?uid=758765&site=0&ver=LCA080805&item=4598720112&lk=URL) 
 
Rear Fascia:   item #  4598720699
_http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29296-2357-0?uid=758765&site=0&ver=LCA080805&it
em=4598720699&lk=URL_ 
(http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29296-2357-0?uid=758765&site=0&ver=LCA080805&item=4598720699&lk=URL) 
 
Sunshade:      item #  4598721446
_http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29296-2357-0?uid=758765&site=0&ver=LCA080805&it
em=4598721446&lk=URL_ 
(http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29296-2357-0?uid=758765&site=0&ver=LCA080805&item=4598721446&lk=URL) 
 

Good luck to any bidders out there, and may they all find good homes  in the 
rebuilding of someones car!  (And just a quick reminder for SW  Florida owners 
that the parts are currently located at DMC-Florida in Bonita  Springs, so if 
you're local, you can pick them up there in person and avoid  shipping 
charges!)
 
Dan Harris - VIN # 1662 - FL Tag # MY  81DMC



 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 04:49:15 -0000
From: "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Failed CA Emissions UPDATE (still bad)

I was just talking to John H. and I brought up the fact that there 
is something wrong with my cooling fan circuit. The fans will not 
come on with the traditional jumpers OR by shorting the otterstat 
wires. I have found a way to get the fans to run although they will 
run continually with or without the ignition on.  When I have gone 
to get the car smogged I have activated the fans and let them run 
continually so that the car would not overheat.  The temperature 
would stay below the first line in this condition. (with the fans 
running constantly) Could this cause my car to fail due to a cold 
engine?  Also I am going to run some techron through my engine to 
remove carbon deposits if they exist, couldn't hurt I guess.

I will be going to Garden Grove tomorrow. Hopefully this will be the 
last smog test.  

Nathan
2277

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Marv Hein" <marvhein_at_dml_h...> wrote:
>
> According to his recent post, Chris Almy and I both failed our 
first 
> smog tests due, most likely, to thermostats that were stuck open.  
> 
> We both passed on the second try. Mine was only twenty minutes 
> later, as the guy at the second shop took so long trying to find 
the 
> car in his computer ("Who makes that?") that the cooling fans came 
> on.
> 
> Is your temp gauge is running right around the 1/4 mark?
> 
> Marv
> #10820
> AZ-D  
> 
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_y...> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello gang,
> > 
> > Well, I am at wits end and more or less at the end of my 
> > mechanical ability. I performed a full tune up including new 
> > cap/rotor, wires, spark plugs, new cat, new O2 sensor. My car 
> > runs great, good acceleration, pretty good idle (hunts a little 
> bit 
> > 100 rpm or so) STILL FAILED SMOG!!
> > 
> > I am going to take the car the Garden Grove and have the guys 
> > do their thing again.  They are really nice and understanding 
> > about this whole thing I must say.  
> > 
> > Any more ideas out there? The smog tech said that he thought it 
> > could be a small timing problem or that the car was not totally 
> > warmed up.  I only failed the NOx portion again, barely. Ill 
post 
> > the results later tonight.   I thought NOX was from HIGH 
ignition 
> > temps, not from a cold engine.  BTW, none of these smog 
> > people have even seen a Delorean before; they look at it like 
it's 
> > a space ship or something.  Could they be doing the test 
> > wrong??  
> > 
> > Very frustrated
> > 
> > Nathan Sobieralski
> > 2277
> >
>









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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 07:42:47 -0000
From: "Joe OBrien" <joeyoseppijoe_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Question for owners with issues.

"Since installing these components the car it has been running really 
well, however STILL fails smog.  I will again be taking the car to 
Garden Grove, this time hopefully it will be fixed."


Well, just wait about 11 days then get your car classic, or 
historical registration depending on where you live. Then no more 
need to worry about the smog checks again. :-)

Just a thought instead of pulling your hair out over the smog check.

-Joe O'Brien

2524,
16634,
16851





"Since installing these components the car it has been running really 
well, however STILL fails smog.  I will again be taking the car to 
Garden Grove, this time hopefully it will be fixed."







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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 10
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:06:32 -0000
From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Question for owners with issues.

So it would seem that the point of my post was lost. It was an effort
to empower you by giving you direction to resolve this issue, not a
personal attack. And at that, it wasn't directed at you specificly either.

First off, the outside temperature certainly is germane to the issue.
Open up you Workshop Manual, and turn to page D:01:15, 2nd colum,
bottom paragraph:

"The car is wired for a hot start relay. This relay can be installed
if a hot starting problem is experienced in excessively hot regions of
the country. When this relay is used, the cold start valve will inject
intermittently durring cranking, when the engine is hot."

Since I failed to properly communicate my words previously, let me
explain my side of the story here as to why this is not a *design
flaw* as you believe, and is a problem with a failed component of your
fuel system, utilizing factual systems theories to back up my
statements. Most importantly here, since others are having this same
issue, this message is addressed to them as well. This will also help
them to understand issues with their own cars as well.

Fact #1: When cold, the K-Jetronic system utilizes a 7th EFI-type Cold
Start Injector to spray extra fuel into the combustion chambers in
order to cause a "choke" condition on the engine (cold combustion
chambers will cause atomized fuel to condensate, and have a lower
flashpoint).

Fact #2: The K-Jetronic fuel injection system CIS type that relies on
high fuel pressures to force spring loaded valves to crack open on the
fuel injectors to deliver fuel. In addition, the fuel pressures
themselves are used to meter the amount of fuel dispensed from the
injectors themselves.

Fact #3: When at rest, the K-Jetronic system relies upon a series of
check valves to maintain rest pressure of the fuel system. This
ensures immediate firing of the engine, by ensuring that only a slight
increase in fuel system pressure is enough to open up the injectors.
Regular operating pressures are achieved immediately durring the
engine cranking process, as the fuel pump has already been triggered
by the RPM Relay, as soon as the key is placed into the "ON", or "II"
position.

Fact #4: The Hot Start Relay was NOT intended as a remedy for a faulty
fuel system. The problem is related to the fact that the core
temperature of the engine would become cold enough to require a
*choke* to start, but the Thermo Time Switch would have been heated to
the point where it would not trip to fire of the CSV injector (95
degrees farenheit), THEN it would be needed to start the car. This is
NOT the same as a loss of rest fuel pressure that other owners describe.


As I said previously, the common DeLorean "Hot Start" problem is not
the same as the one listed in the book. We're dealing with fuel
systems that cannot maintain their fuel rest pressure. When you use
the Cold Start Valve to start the engine (be it via a "Hot Start
Relay", or manually triggering the CSV by using the 12V CPR heater
feed), you're not actually fixing the engine. All that's happening is
you're crudely carburetting the engine, while the fuel pump builds up
enough pressure to crack open the injector valves. And if you flood
the engine too much during the cranking procedure, you're can cause
long term damage such as washing out cylinders, or other damage due to
engine "dieseling". In fact, people with a "Hot-Start" issue typicly
crank their cars a bit longer when cold, than those without, because
they need the CSV to feed the engine, while the pump builds up
pressure. Hot or cold, a good system will fire the engine with no
hesitation.

Fact #6: To maintain rest pressure, the K-Jetronic system relis on a
series of check valves to maintain fuel pressure. In reality, there
are 10 possible places where leaks contributing to rest pressure loss
can occur. And they are:

1. Fuel Pump Check Valve (dependant upon type of pump used, this may,
or may not be apart of the entire fuel pump assembly)
2. Accumulator
3. Primary Pressure Regulator
4. Cold Start Injector
5/6/7/8/9/10: Individual Fuel injectors.

Now to test if any of these items are leaking, you need to use a Fuel
Pressure Gauge. Pressurize the system, let it rest for a while, and
see what happens. If the pressure drops, then you know that you've got
a leak somewhere, and you need to further examine things to see just
where that leak is occuring at. If the pressure is maintained, then
you know that the issue is electrical.

Another thing to note is on your Primary Pressure Regulator. While it
is a singular unit, there are 3 compoents in it that would be prone to
failure over time. Those being both the rubber O-rings, as well as the
metal spring inside.


What you do need to keep in mind here is that #1, new parts are NOT
always going to work properly. Manufacturing defects do occur. Next,
you say that of all the items you've replaced, you've still not hit up
the fuel injectors yet. You also describe that you've had this issue
over the past 10 years, but you haven't said at what intervals you've
taken the car in for service. It may be that the past repairs were
infact effective in addressing what they intended to fix. But
something else could have broke right after you got that repaired!
After all, this is a used car. Most importantly, you don't list the
results of what a fuel system pressure test may have been. You might
just be chasing down a red herring!


I do not believe for one second that a handful of people on this list,
out of the thousand + members here having a simular issue, constitutes
some kind of a "design flaw". What then is the explanation for the
others who do not have this problem?

If you still think this to be some sort of "design flaw" in the design
of the system, if you believe that there is some sort of a problem of
factory origin with this design, then tell me what it is?

What is your theory here as to what is causing fuel pressure loss,
that contridicts the operating theory of the fuel delivery system?
What do you believe is the problem here that is causing the issue in
your car? And most importantly, out of all of the issues addressed,
and improved parts delivered to us from the vendors over the past
quarter-century, what have they missed?

This question isn't just for you, Scott. If anyone else has any
feedback, I'd really like to hear it too.

I am not a moderator of this list. In fact, I'm still scratching my
head as to where that comment came from. But let me honestly say that
I am not trying to riddicule you, chase you off, or censure you in any
way thru a chilling effect. The goal here for everyone is to learn,
and pass on what we know. The biggest problem that I have seen here
over the years with owners posting questions isn't their lack of
knowlege. It's the lack of a structured troubleshooting flow
chart/procedure. That is what I am attempting to address here.

Now, if you don't believe that you own a high-end car, it doesn't
bother me. If it's just a toy to you, that doesn't bother me either.
But I can tell you that my experience with my own hot-start issue
comes directly from my own car which was used as a daily driver for
years, because it was my only car for that period. 6 years I've owned
my car, and studied my Workshop Manual and Parts Catalogue for 3 years
before that, and I've been on the DML for almost 10. Not impressed
with that? That's fine with me. Because accuracy of knowlege is what's
important here, not time it's been retained.

If you decide to leave this list permanently, it would be a shame. It
would be loss to both the community, and to yourself. We ourselves
don't have to get along. You and I don't have to be friends. But there
are other friendships here with others to be certain that you will
develop over time. Personally, I don't want you to be deprived of
that, so I'll ask you to please stay. However, if you do infact choose
to go ahead with your plans, don't for one second think of making me
into some sort of scapegoat for your departure...

Best wishes.

-Robert
vin 6585 "X"



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Scot Stern" <Scotstern_at_dml_a...> wrote:
>
> Robert,
> 
> Thank you for your response to my problem concerning the hot start.  
> Frankly, after reading it several times, it is in my opinion clearly 
> an attack / flame post.
<SNIP>







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 11
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 13:10:35 -0000
From: "Dave Swingle" <swingle_at_dml_dmcnews.com>
Subject: Re: crumple tube.

I'm not sure that the reinforcement kit would have helped this one. 
This looks like what happens when you run into a concrete parking 
stop, and hard. This is a long way from normal wear and tear, and I 
don't see how you could get this from bad roads without ripping the 
ball joints out first. 

This could also concievebly happen by dragging the car up ramps onto 
a trailer with the front tires flat, but the operator would have to 
have been using a winch and also be somewhat brain-dead at the time. 

Dave Swingle


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Chris Murley <qumefox_at_dml_g...> wrote:
>
> funkstuf wrote:
> 
> >I just posted some pictures of crumple tube damage on a project 
> >Delorean I'm working on.  Interestingly enough, the rest of the 
frame 
> >has absolutely no rust anywhere and not even a crack in the 
epoxy.  I 
> >think this is a good example of what driving a Delorean a little 
too 
> >hard might result in.  Check it out in the Photo section. (VIN941)
> >
> >Dale Funk
> >4984
> >941
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> Hmm  Interesting pics but it looks to me like this particular car 
never 
> recieved the extra bracing for the crumple tube that there was a 
recall 
> for. And I imagine that this was the type of thing the recall was 
issued 
> for to begin with. 







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 12
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:38:28 -0500
From: <rob_at_dml_pjgrady.com>
Subject: RE: Re:Possible fuel leak-down problem

Scott,

>From what I gather you have already replaced the fuel pump, fuel distributor
(or at least the Pres. Reg./check valve) & accumulator which accounts for
98% of leak-down problems. Here's what I suggest to do. If you don't have
access to a gauge (the best way to confirm a leak-down problem) simply warm
up the engine and shut it off. Wait 30 to 45 minutes and using a rag to
catch the fuel (very important to wrap it loosely around the C. S. Valve)
and a 12mm wrench crack the banjo bolt loose on top of the Cold Start Valve.
If you don't know what that is read the workshop manual or have someone
qualified do this for you. That is not a slight as this is a safety issue.
Fuel should spray out sideways as it's still under pressure. If it dribbles
out then you do still have a leak-down problem. If you do then pick up the
phone and call Don and let him know your findings. I'm sure he'll be happy
to recheck the fuel system for you now KNOWING it's still a leak-down
problem. Have him or again some qualified person start by removing the
double 19mm banjo bolt on the passenger side of the distributor next to the
pressure regulator/check valve and observe how many seconds it takes for a
drop of fuel to drip out of the thread area (dry them first with a cloth).
If it takes less than ten seconds you have a defective fuel distributor or
check valve which should be warranty-able. You won't find this spec. in any
book... I had to figure this out my own after experiencing the same problem
you describe. I have seen this happen before and it would be the first thing
I'd check at this point in time. Please let me know if this helps as people
on the DML often don't give me any feedback as to whether my advice helped
them or not. If it doesn't help you it may help some of the other five
people you mentioned.

Rob Grady,

P.J.Grady Inc.

-----Original Message-----
From: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com [mailto:dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Scot Stern
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 7:50 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Re: Question for owners with issues.

Robert,

Thank you for your response to my problem concerning the hot start.  
Frankly, after reading it several times, it is in my opinion clearly 
an attack / flame post.

I find it interesting that nine people responded on the board to the 
problem and another five emailed me directly to indicate that they 
had similar situations without much resolve.  Apparently, I am not 
the "Lone Ranger" when it comes to hot start problems.

Yes, I do have a manual and I find it to be of little help which is 
why I enlisted the aid of the board to see if they had any practical 
experience that they could share.  The manual is wonderful 
scintillating reading if you want to know where the engine is located.

You say that hot start problems are not normal for the Delorean yet 
the posts on this board say otherwise.  To confirm this, I took the 
car to a recognized reputable vendor over five times to try and have 
this issue resolved.  He replaced the fuel pump, accumulator, and 
fuel distributor and still this car will not start when the engine is 
hot!  He was stumped and offered no further solution.

This has nothing to do with the outside temperature so, seeing cars 
start in triple digit weather really is not germane.  The problem can 
happen in any ambient temperature and is solely affected by leaving 
the car for a short period of time after it has run and then trying 
to restart it.

I have owned many fuel injected engines in airplanes, cars, boats and 
other watercraft and this car is the only one that will not start 
when it is heat soaked.  I have seen similar situations with airplane 
engines and you simply "boost pump" it to re-pressurize the injectors 
and it starts.

Now, if you read your own board, you will see that people have 
suggested that I change a relay, re-change the accumulator, change 
the O rings, change the fuel distributor the check valve and the fuel 
pump.  It is interesting to me that no one seems to agree on 
specifically what is wrong and what I should change. I did learn, as 
a result of these posts that it could be a relay which I had not 
heard before, and candidly that was the purpose of asking.  I wanted 
to ascertain if there were any other view points on this problem.

Lastly, the suggestion of the switch came from one of your esteemed 
members not from my imagination.  I thought that at least this would 
offer some piece of mind until I could find a more permanent method 
of fixing the problem.

One very nice vendor suggested that I get a CIS device and I asked if 
there was somewhere special to get one of these and there were three 
answers.  It appears that this subject was also of interest to all 
concerned.

Robert, I really don't know why you are bitter about someone asking 
for assistance.  Fortunately, the Delorean is not the only car that I 
own and I do not depend upon it for daily transportation.  It is 
simply a "toy" and while I would like to have it operate properly I 
am not convinced that it is as simple a problem as you seem to think 
that it is.  Apparently, judging by the posts and the private emails 
that I got many others seem to agree.

As another thoguht, from my perspective, I do not consider a Delorean 
to be a high-end car.  I have several others that might be closer to 
that status but yet, that is only relative as what I would think to 
be high-end, Bill Gates probably would not.

Robert, since you are apparently the self-appointed moderator of the 
DMC board, maybe you should post what we can or can't talk about so 
that the rules are clear to all concerned.

Please cherish this post as my last contribution as I did find your 
post offensive and aggressive. Fortunately, not being able to post on 
this board will not place undue hardship on me or the ownership of my 
car. 

Lasty, any automobile that has as many posts as the Delorean car 
seems to have that relate to the car simply starting when it is hot, 
must have a design flaw somewhere.  Think about it......       



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_g...> 
wrote:
>
> Let me start off by saying that I am not intending for this post to 
be
> a flame. It's not an attack, just an honest question for people.
> 
> I've been pretty dormant on this, and other lists for a while now, 
but
> I have been reading some of the topics that have recently been
> discussed. Two in particular are regarding "valleyrat's" failed smog
> test, and Scott's Hot-Start issue. And I honestly have to ask this:
> 
> Do any of you own a Workshop Manual?
> 
> Allot of questions that I'm seeing on here are uber-simple ones that
> should already have been obvious with a workshop manual, and a 
little
> automotive know how.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that everyone here
> should be at the level of an ASE mechanic. After all, this is a 
forum
> for DIY'ers seeking help. But if you're asking about an engine 
running
> lean, and you've not yet hit it with a timing light, then let's 
take a
> step back, and even ask how to do that, before tearing your exhaust
> system apart to shine a light into the Catalytic Convertor.
> 
> Hot Start problems are NOT normal on the DeLorean, or any car that
> uses a K-Jetronic fuel injection system. I've seen DeLoreans fire-up
> in triple digit heat, and have only taken about a second-long turn 
of
> the key to do so. For a beater Volvo that ends up on some
> "Buy-Here/Pay-Here" car lot in the middle of the ghetto, yes, the
> Hot-Start relay is needed, because it's assumed that people will NOT
> properly maintain these cars in the long run. For a high-end car 
such
> as the DeLorean, it's assumed that proper maintenance will negate 
the
> installation of a band-aid remedy.
> 
> Now I know that sounds a bit harsh. And I wouldn't normally be so
> frank in my words for someone who is still getting familiar with 
their
> car. But 10 YEARS and you still have this issue?    Even if you're 
not
> handy with a wrench, I can understand. But at the very least, be 
more
> aggressive with your mechanic and demand that the issue you paid for
> to be resolved, gets properly taken care of. Especially if you're
> already armed with the knowlege of how the affected system(s) 
function.
> 
> Like I say, I've seen DeLoreans fire up in all sorts of weather, and
> not have an issue. So this is NOT a "design flaw" with the DeLorean
> car itself. If there is any flaw in this case, it's flawed diagnotic
> procedure that's been performed on your car by both your mechanic, 
AND
> by you (that "design flaw" statement is insulting to me, and other
> owners who's cars operate properly). It's a machine, not a deity.
> Money means nothing to it. So throwing cash at the car's issue(s) 
will
> not appease the gremlins inside, and make the issue magicly go away.
> 
> You've got two potential issues: 1. Electrical, or 2. Fuel Pressure.
> And if it is Fuel Pressure related (as it typicly is), you need to
> perform the proper diagnotic procedure to determine it as such. THEN
> determine what has to be replaced, and start the diagnosis procedure
> over again if it's still not resolved.
> 
> I don't care if you buy *new* stuff from John Hervey, or 25 year old
> *NOS* parts from DMCH. Age has nothing to do with the fact that some
> parts may leave the factory defective. So just because it was 
replaced
> once, doesn't mean that the new part is any better off than the
> *defective* one you replaced. Assuming of course that proper
> troubleshooting is what determined it to be bad in the first place.
> 
> You have 5 components of the Fuel Injection system that are
> responsible for maintaining fuel pressure while the system is at 
rest.
> Performing the reccomending system test will help you determine 
which,
> if any, of these components are at fault.
> 
> Now I know that this post has sounded a bit mean, but believe me, 
it's
> more of a "tough love" message here. My solution for you isn't to 
take
> the car into a vendor to get the issue fixed. No, I think that it's
> high time you hunker down, and bust a few knuckles fixing the issue
> yourself. Unless someone doesn't have a cost-prohibative tool (ie.
> alignment rack, exhaust gas analyser), or they lack valuable
> experience in a particular area (ie. MVAC, or electronics repair) 
that
> requires the use of a vendors services, there is no reason that 
people
> shouldn't be working on their cars themselves. Even if you're tight 
on
> workspace where you can tear the car apart, you need to at least be
> able to partially diagnose the issue yourself, and talk it over with
> your mechanic.
> 
> -Robert
> vin 6585 "X"
>








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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 13
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:59:24 -0000
From: "Paul Dmytrewycz" <pauld_at_dml_pauld.net>
Subject: Of vague interest to Delorean owners...

From the IMDB:

Fox Heading 'Back to the Future'?

Michael J. Fox is heading Back To The Future for a fourth
time-traveling movie. The actor, who suffers from Parkinson's disease,
admits he's in negotiations for a final film in the series - but only
if they make his character as old as he is in real life. The former
Spin City star wants to take over Christopher Lloyd's eccentric
scientist character, Doc, in the sequel. He tells movie website
Moviehole.net, "The only way it would work would be if I played Doc.
I'm 44-years-old now and I'm not interested in running around on
skateboards! I think after 1, 2 and 3 we all kind of felt we had done
it. And I think if they did it again now they would do it with a
younger cast and just do a different realisation of it, which would be
fun."

I wonder if they'll use real cars or just CGI?

(rolls eyes)








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 14
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:55:37 -0500
From: <rob_at_dml_pjgrady.com>
Subject: RE: Door Piston Lwr Support Brackets

Martin & Josh,

We carry heavy duty door piston lower stud brackets as follows.

108653G Supt Brkt, Door Piston Lwr L/H....$19.50
108653G   "   "      "     "    "  R/H....$19.50
108655G Backing Plate, Dr Piston Supt.....$14.50 Each

These brackets are longer and stronger than stock and install with four H.D.
rivets instead of the original two. They work for cars whose brackets are
just starting to bend and can compensate for light fiberglass damage only. 
If the brackets are ripped out or the fiberglass mounting area is heavily
damaged it must be repaired which increases repair costs significantly. That
is why we encourage people to inspect for bending and replace them before
fiberglass damage is done. There is usually bending well before the
fiberglass mounting area is damaged so routine inspection is highly
advisable. We'd sell a lot more of these brackets if people checked their
supports before it was too late to upgrade and not also repair. They are not
easy to install so many chose to ignore the problem until damage occurs. I
discussed this before on the DML so you could always check the archives.

Rob Grady,

P.J.Grady Inc.


-----Original Message-----
From: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com [mailto:dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Martin Gutkowski
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 6:06 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DML] Door Piston Holder

Oh Dear

We had a similar problem with a customer's car which had the passenger 
side mount completely pulled out taking probably three square inches of 
glass with it and leaving a gaping hole. The root cause was a 
combination of three things. 1) Struts with ball joints that were too 
long, 2) the fibreglass was very poor with about 3mm of gelcoat and only 
a couple of layers of glass and 3) Blokie at the factory putting the 
mount in 1/2" closer to the hinge than on the opposite side!

I had a set of Rob Grady's strengtheners but the condition of the 
fibreglass was such that these didn't work at all - I think they're 
designed for one that moves but hasn't come out completely! In the end, 
we subbed out the car to a Lotus specialist who ended up cutting that 
section of the roof away (quarter panel and roof plus all the trim and 
interior quarter removed) and reconstructing the fibreglass with a steel 
bar reinforcing that whole top corner. It was not possible to move the 
mount further in given the nature of the repair and we turned down the 
ball joints on the replacement strut to shorten it by 2mm each end (even 
our struts had ends that were too long). The repair was absolutely 
beautiful and you can rock the whole car on that mount now.

It was a big job. You may be lucky and can just strengthen it using 
Rob's kit.

Martin
DMC Ltd
www.delorean.co.uk

dmcjosh85 wrote:

>My situation is this: Where my drivers side gas strut ataches to the 
>frame wiggles, infact its quite loose. I'm able to move it around a 
>bit when the doors are open and I lift the door up myself even 
>further. Doing the same on the passenger side is different, whereas 
>since that door has been used less where its strut attaches to on the 
>frame hardly moves at all even when I pick the door up beyond the lift 
>weight. 
>
>Being that for 25 years there has always been pressure applied to that 
>bit Im wondering is there a way to fix this or is this somthing that 
>should be replaced at some point in the deloreans lifetime?
>
>~ Josh Tidwell
>- 04463
>
>  
>






To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
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To search the archives or view files, log in at
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Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/194 - Release Date: 12/7/2005
 





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 15
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:42:11 -0000
From: "Jim Reeve" <dmc6960_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Trans problem-violent shake

Try bleeding the clutch line.  I had this issue crop up this year and
bleeding fixed it. However, you said that you didn't resurface the
flywheel and that has me a little squirmish, but bleeding would by far
be the simplest solution to try first.  My clutch was replaced in May
2003, 30,000 miles ago. (62,000 then, 92,000 now).

Jim Reeve
MNDMC - Minnesota DeLorean Club
DMC6960


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "stainlessilusion" <5n-_at_dml_g...> wrote:
>
> This diagnosis cannot be correct. We did speak-on the phone, I also 
> ordered a paper gasket for the rear cover as well, and was looking 
> for the 2 washers (103203) for the final drive/differential which 
> you were unable to find. Back when all this happened, there was too 
> much oil leaking (not really leaking-but pouring) way too fast-
> ruling out a bad seal. There was no way to continue driving like 
> this-no oil in the transmission=seizing, and a badly slipping oil 
> soaked clutch (which didn't shake the car violently or even at all). 
> 
> So, I did have to take out the transmission, split it (writing up a 
> whole bunch of questions and posting them here-especially about what 
> sealant to use to reassemble-thanks to the responses of you (Rob) 
> and Dave Swingle, my transmission is now sealed up tight) finding 
> that the cause of the massive oil leak was a large hole in the input 
> shaft "guide tube". I did change all gaskets and seals (some I had 
> on my shelf among my vast collection of DeLorean parts, some I 
> ordered from you (Rob)) as well as lots of clips, pins, washers as 
> well as both the shaft end lock nuts and of course, the input shaft 
> guide tube. Again, this was all done months and months ago, along 
> with replacing the rear main seal and the clutch disc. 
> My transmission and engine both still fail to leak even a single drop 
> of oil (very little seepage from 5th gear spring/ball plug is all I 
> have). So, oil isn't the cause of this sudden problem. If I'm at a 
> dead stop I have no choice but to start from second (I'd hate to 
> crack a bracket), if I'm rolling I start in first, or second if I'm 
> going fast enough for it. 
> 
> Mr. Hervey- I did replace the pilot 
> bearing-I ordered it from you, as well as the rear main and gasket-
> from advance auto. I keep forgetting to send you my clutch discs to 
> get relined; I'll make a note of it and get them out soon. 
> Mr. Teitelbaum- I had to change my positive battery cable so I
looked at 
> everything yesterday- all engine mounts, transmission mounts, and 
> brackets are solid, crack free and tightly fastened. Clutch isn't 
> worn out yet, and even though the input shaft splines were lubed 
> prior to clutch installation-it can still be a cause. 
> 
> Rob Grady- 
> even though the causing of this isn't a leaky input shaft tube seal- 
> I appreciate you taking the time to write this up trying to help me-
> thank you; and to everyone else whose been helping me try to 
> identify the cause-thank you much! Looks like the only way to figure 
> this out is to lower and pull back the transmission. Thanks again 
> for all the input -----Dani B. #5003
>







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 16
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:15:38 +0000
From: Martin Gutkowski <martin_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: crumple tube.

Sorry I'm a bit late on this thread. That photo looks VERY familiar. 
Have a lok at this

http://www.delorean.co.uk/DSCN1818.JPG

This was caused when the car in quesion hit a kerb at 30 mph. It broke 
the steering rack as well and took a nice chunk out of the wheel for 
good measure. It didn't hit anything head on. This car had a new 
extension fitted and is back on the road.

I do have another customer who's saving up for a frame extension after 
an altercation with a wall. He demolished it and ended up sitting on top 
of a pile of bricks. Being a later car, it already had the frame 
extension recall and it certainly did its job! The whole front "cone" on 
one side is squashed upwards by about 1/2" with a perfect imprint of the 
recall plate impressed underneath. It stayed in one piece though. Sorry, 
I didn't take a snap of that one.

Martin
DMC Ltd
www.deloream.co.uk

Dave Swingle wrote:

>I'm not sure that the reinforcement kit would have helped this one. 
>This looks like what happens when you run into a concrete parking 
>stop, and hard. This is a long way from normal wear and tear, and I 
>don't see how you could get this from bad roads without ripping the 
>ball joints out first. 
>
>This could also concievebly happen by dragging the car up ramps onto 
>a trailer with the front tires flat, but the operator would have to 
>have been using a winch and also be somewhat brain-dead at the time. 
>
>Dave Swingle
>  
>






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 17
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:05:36 -0600
From: Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_safety-epa.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Question for owners with issues.

It be nice if emission testing would end after 25 years. Unfortunately, 
CA passed a law last years to re include cars older than 25 years.  
These were formerly exempted.

Illinois also requires emission testing of all cars back to 1967.  How 
stupid is that!

Bob





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________________________________________________________________________


Message: 18
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:39:04 -0000
From: "John Dore" <dmcjohn_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Back to the Future 4!

Check it out...

http://www.entertainmentwise.com/news?id=11905

Regards,
John Dore, Ireland.







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 19
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:59:56 +0000
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: My starting issues Re: Question for owners with issues.

Dan - what position is the gas pedal in when you start the car?

--
Mike


-------------- Original message from "Dan" <djdanwilson_at_dml_yahoo.com>: -------------- 


> Here's my version of the "hot start" issue. 
> 
> I usually only drive the car on Saturdays, to and from cruise-ins. 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 20
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:07:45 -0000
From: "turbodelorean" <dmcfan_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Question for owners with issues.

Just get an AV plate. Next year the 81's can qualify and they do not 
have the crummy brown looking one anymore. It looks very nice. 

Peter Kuchan

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Bob Brandys <BobB_at_dml_s...> wrote:
>
> 
> Illinois also requires emission testing of all cars back to 1967.  
How 
> stupid is that!
> 
> Bob
>








________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 21
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:46:06 -0600
From: DMCVIN6683 <dmcvin6683_at_dml_wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Of vague interest to Delorean owners...

Do you have a direct link to the article? I cant find it.

Mark V


On Dec 21, 2005, at 9:59 AM, Paul Dmytrewycz wrote:

> From the IMDB:
>
> Fox Heading 'Back to the Future'?
>
> Michael J. Fox is heading Back To The Future for a fourth
> time-traveling movie. The actor, who suffers from Parkinson's disease,
> admits he's in negotiations for a final film in the series - but only
> if they make his character as old as he is in real life. The former
> Spin City star wants to take over Christopher Lloyd's eccentric
> scientist character, Doc, in the sequel. He tells movie website
> Moviehole.net, "The only way it would work would be if I played Doc.
> I'm 44-years-old now and I'm not interested in running around on
> skateboards! I think after 1, 2 and 3 we all kind of felt we had done
> it. And I think if they did it again now they would do it with a
> younger cast and just do a different realisation of it, which would be
> fun."
>
> I wonder if they'll use real cars or just CGI?
>
> (rolls eyes)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see 
> www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 22
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:35:44 -0000
From: "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Happy new owner (passed smog today!)

Hello Everyone,

My car passed smog today with the help of Dan at DMC in Garden Grove. 
He dialed in the fuel mixture and the car passed with flying colors. 
It turns out that one of my previous attempts at smog was foiled by an 
idiot smog tech that did not keep the RPMS high enough at 15mph. 
Delorean owners beware in CA.

Also, I fixed me cooling fan problem.  After going through the circuit 
with John H. we managed to isolate a few of the potential problems. It 
turns out some idiot put the wrong type of relay in the fain relay 
socket!

I am now a HAPPY new owner of a Delorean.  Hooray!!

Nathan









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Message: 23
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:03:26 +0100
From: "Tom Niemczewski" <tomciodmc_at_dml_poczta.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Re: Failed emmissions AGAIN - really long

Hello Dan and others reading this...
First I have to apologize for the length of this post... I wonder how many 
will actually read it all the way to the end ;)


<SNIP>
>> ...the answer to that would be that whoever
>> wrote the Owner's Handbook must have made a mistake or just forgot to
>> mention that in YOUR book. I say "your" book because mine clearly
> states
>
> I have a 1983 Owner's Handbook. Probably the last edition printed. You
> are correct. It does state that on page 40. I however was referring to
> page 39 where is says:
>
> "Fuel Tank          51.6 litres          13.2 gallons
> (91 octane unleaded only)"
>
> When I see "91 octane unleaded only" in the handbook of an American
<SNIP>
> I now understand the difference between (R+M/2) & RON because I looked
> it up on Wikipedia. I also now see that the Owner's Handbook was
> poorly written.
****
Exactly... Most people don't know the difference between grades of gasoline 
and they go by the assumption that "premium" or "super" is better. It's 
clever marketing by the oil companies that really works.


>> Is this a bulletproof enough source? :)
> Yes, but looking back on what I wrote I was apparently not clear
> because I was referencing the desire for bulletproof sources on your
> claim of deposits building up due to using higher octane fuel than
> required that leads to emission issues
<SNIP>
>> The higher the octane number the less chance for detonation but
>> at the same time combustion temperatures are higher.
> Okay, so wouldn't higher combustion temps burn off these deposits?
> Again, I'm not arguing as much as approaching this from the point of
> view of someone with limited knowledge attempting to apply common
> sense based on what they know.
****
Ok, you would be right in this case... it seems logical, but you are 
forgetting one thing. In case of the engine the time of the burn is also 
important. This means that all gasoline needs to be burned in a 
predetermined amount of time. Because of this when you use higher octane gas 
there will not be enough time for all the mixture to burn properly. Higher 
octane fuel burns slower and because of that the temperature is higher but 
before all the gas is burned inside the cylinder it is being pushed out of 
the cylinder because the exhaust phase has already started. If the engine is 
designed to use fast burning gas, the slower burning premium will be pushed 
into the exhaust before it has enough time to burn. This will raise the 
emissions. All the unburned gas will end up in the catalytic converter where 
it will be burned up causing the converter to overheat. This after some time 
will cause deposits to form inside the combustion chamber and will damage 
the converter.
Makes sense? ;)

> Also, my previous question still
> remains. If you have an engine that has been run for a long time on
> higher octane fuels than required, and it now has these deposits built
> up that have raised it's compression as a result. Wouldn't suddenly
> running it on lower octane cause, or run a higher risk of detonation
> since you're now running fuel lower in octane than appropriate for the
> engine's "new" raised compression ratio? I mean, if the deposits
> raised the engine's compression, wouldn't running a fuel that is not
> adequate for the current compression cause knock rather than clean out
> the deposits?
****
YES, You are right. It might cause knock when you switch to 'regular'. It 
the engine has been run on premium for a long time it will sound much worst 
at first. BUT with the raised compression and now faster burning fuel the 
deposits will be cleared out of the engine pretty quickly. That is why I 
advised to go on a hour long drive at highway speeds. Detonation and knock 
usually occur at high loads (heavy acceleration). Cruising at constant 
highway speed does not put a lot of load on the engine and at the same time 
keeps it running at high RPMs. Great exercise for the engine, clears any 
deposits, moves a lot of gas through the converter clearing it as well.


> Ambient air temp is another factor in detonation. I know this through
> experience, not through a text book. Again, I live in Phoenix,
> Arizona. One mile above hell, lol. I have a '97 T-bird with a 3.8
> liter V6. It's a low compression engine too, and Ford suggests running
> it on 87 (R+M/2) <SNIP>
> Will the PRV V6 do the same? I don't know, but I also do not want to
> find out.
****
This will probably offend a lot of people but that is my point of view... 
Don't compare Ford to the PRV. Ford stands for Fix Or Repair Daily ;)
But seriously, that doesn't mean all engines will act the same. It all 
depends on timing, mixture, how the valves are set.. There are many 
variables. Ambient temperature might have some effect but not a lot. The 
engine temperature is controlled by the thermostat and it should be constant 
regardless of ambient temp. The slightly higher intake temp will cause a 
slightly leaner mixture, but FI computer should compensate for that. Maybe 
it was just time to get the valves adjusted in those cars? Check the 
maintenance schedule.
Anyway, a little knock is not dangerous to the engine. A little means that 
it is not constant and not very loud. If you only hear it at high loads 
(going up a steep hill) then it's ok. If you hear it often then you should 
check the timing, timing advance and adjust the valves. On some cars the 
valves need to be adjusted very often. I used to have an old Fiat where the 
valves were suppose to be check and adjusted every 10k miles! It depends on 
how the engine was made.

>> And the most important thing - 93 IS NOT BETTER than 87.
> It is if it prevents detonation in your particular engine regardless
> of what a handbook says. I'll take emission fouling deposits over
> detonation any day!
****
I would say check if everything is as it should be. If the car was designed 
for 87 it should run the best on 87. If it doesn't then something is not 
right. Be it the timing, timing advance or valve adjustment. BTW, timing 
advance is a common problem on the DeLorean. On every DeLorean that I looked 
at the advance solenoid had a vacuum leak! This will cause knock at high 
loads!

> By the way, just an FYI. Premium fuel in Colorado is 91 (R+M/2), not
> 93 (R+M/2).
****
True... I didn't look at where you were. I used to live in FL and got used 
to 87, 89 and 93. Lower octane premium is used at higher elevations because 
of lower oxygen content in the air. 93 plus low amount of oxygen would cause 
an even slower burn adding to the problem.

I would like to congratulate everyone who got this far reading my tech 
stuff. You must be really TOUGH! ;)

Greetings from Poland

Tom Niemczewski
vin 6149 (in Poland!)
tomciodmc_at_dml_poczta.onet.pl
www.deloreana.com





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Message: 24
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:09:03 -0600
From: <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Question for owners with issues.

There have been several responses concerning the hot start problem that have 
covered the fuel system compnents that can contribute to low fuel pressure. 
One thing, regardless of fuel pressure, that hasn't been pointed out is the 
way the RPM relay ( aka fuel pump relay ) works. There may be some, new 
owners in particular, who don't realize that this relay starts the fuel pump 
during the cranking process but also shuts it off. At the same time it 
starts the fuel pump it begins looking at pulses from the ignition coil. If 
it doesn't see the pulse rate increase, which indicates the engine has 
started, with-in several seconds it shuts the pump off to prevent flooding. 
Continuous cranking will not restore fuel pressure. In this case you should 
crank for a second or two. leave the key turned to on for a few more moments 
and then turn it to off. Then repeate. Eventualy fuel pressure will be 
restored unless there is a large leak in the system. As has been pointed 
out, the mechanical injectors need a high amount of fuel pressure to open. 
The system is designed to maintin that pressure throughout a cool down 
period after which the engine is cool enough for the thermo time switch to 
trigger the electric cold start valve to open and inject fuel into the 
engine. The systems design was never intended to maintain full pressure 
indefinitely, only for an extended period of time until the engine is cold.

Bruce Benson 





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Message: 25
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:11:51 -0000
From: "Mike" <milesperhour79_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Back to the Future 4!


Not quite....

http://www.bttf.com/index.php?/weblog/more/latest_future_sequel_rumor_debunked/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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