From: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 6:27 AM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 3106

There are 14 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: DMC type cartoon
From: "Bill Koenig" <dmc06976_at_dml_mail.com>

2. Re: Dwell meter setting??
From: "Dave Sontos" <dsontos_at_dml_verizon.net>

3. Need vacuum measurments
From: "delorean6584" <carburateur100gaz_at_dml_msn.com>

4. Re: Dwell meter setting?? More than you might want to know... ? too LONG?
From: doctorDHD_at_dml_aol.com

5. DMC(Florida) sponsors DCS'06 Millennim Concours
From: "Grimsrud, Knut S" <knut.s.grimsrud_at_dml_intel.com>

6. Re: Dwell meter setting?? More than you might want to know... ? too LONG?
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_optonline.net>

7. RE: Need vacuum measurments
From: "Joseph Kuchan" <josephkuchan_at_dml_hotmail.com>

8. Re: My first tune up
From: Ryan Wright <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com>

9. My first tune up: Making progress, not quite there yet
From: Ryan Wright <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com>

10. Discovered the root cause of my starting problem (I think)
From: "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_yahoo.com>

11. Re: My first tune up: Making progress, not quite there yet
From: Ryan Wright <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com>

12. Re: Help. I mixed up my heater core hoses!
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com

13. Re: Mileage
From: tom kasmer <tkasmer_at_dml_yahoo.com>

14. Re: I would gladly pay you Tuesday for a 125k loan today
From: "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_yahoo.com>





Message: 1
Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 01:21:57 -0000
From: "Bill Koenig" <dmc06976_at_dml_mail.com>
Subject: Re: DMC type cartoon

Hey Al,

I'm 24 and married and a gaming geek - I love pvponline, but it isn't geared towards Ds at all.. or cars for that matter, except occasional references to Dukes of Hazzard.  I noticed they worked DMCs into the storyline this week too, funny to see how many times they pop up. =)

Bill
6976

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Alan  Roberts" <twodelo2_at_dml_...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> 
> My daughter (25 yrs old) is a comic fan and she found this one
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/abwd5
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> Al
> Al Roberts
> twodelo2_at_dml_...
> #4649/#16049
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>








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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 09:49:02 -0500
From: "Dave Sontos" <dsontos_at_dml_verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Dwell meter setting??

Ryan,
Well, since your referencing my web page I should reply. You need to understand what a dwell meter is measuring first. A dwell meter was made to measure the open and closing of ignition points inside a cars distributer before electronic ignitions came out. This is why you can use it on the DeLorean because you are measuring the opening and closing of the frequency valve. Reading the instructions I state "What you are actually reading is the duty cycle of the Frequency Valve." If you had an occiloscope you could watch the cycle as a square wave pattern. The duty cycle is the length of time the frequency valve is on. In quoting from my Bosch Fuel Injection book, "When the Lambda sensor detects a lean running condition the ECU increases the duty cycle to the frequency valve, thereby increasing the volume of fuel through the injectors." The fact that it says to use the "Four Cylinder Scale" is only a reference to a scale on the meter. It has NOTHING to do with four cylinder engines.

If your dwell meter has no scale for four cylinder engines than just adjust the CO to the maximum swing of the needle. Once its adjusted, take the car for a drive and observe the performance. You can adjust the dwell richer or leaner as required. A lean mixture makes the car hard to start when cold.

Dave Sontos
vin 02573
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Wright" <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com>
To: <dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: [DML] Dwell meter setting??


> Dave,
>
> I'm following this procedure: http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7u0gn/id6.html
>
> I don't know why it says the use the 4 cylinder setting... My meter
> doesn't have such settings. Just a "dwell" option and no choice of
> cylinders.







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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 22:31:43 -0000
From: "delorean6584" <carburateur100gaz_at_dml_msn.com>
Subject: Need vacuum measurments

i just want to check if there is any vacuum leaks on my car, mine 
reads 18,5 hg at 1700 rpm anyone can take their vacuum for me ?

thanks
yan








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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 09:51:47 EST
From: doctorDHD_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Dwell meter setting?? More than you might want to know... ? too LONG?

 
 
Guys, 
 
The  "dwell meter" was originally designed to measure the time, in  degrees 
that the "points" of the ignition system stayed (dwelled) closed.   That is 
dependant on how many cylinders the engine has.  If it was a 4  cylinder engine 
the maximum dwell would be 360 degrees divided by 4 (cylinders)  which is 90 
degrees, meaning that if the points were closed all the time (ie.  100 percent 
of the time) they would be closed for 90 degrees for each  cylinder.  Thus for 
a six cylinder car the maximum would be 360 divided by  6  = 60 degrees and 
for an eight cylinder car it would be 360 divided by 8  = 45 degrees.  Thus the 
dwell meter was used to measure and set the amount  of time, as a measure of 
the rotational angle of the distributors 360  degree rotation, that the points 
were close for each cylinder. Modern ignition  system don't use points any 
more to "trigger" the ignition coil. (Factoid,  the spark of the old ignition 
systems is generated when the points opened, not  closed, and this is when the 
primary current stops flowing through the coil,  allowing the magnetic field to 
collapse rapidly thus inducing the high voltage  in the secondary winding of 
the ignition coil...)
 
Back then, the dwell meter displayed the amount of time the point were  
closed versus the full cycle, be it 90, 60 or 45 degrees for a 4, 6, or 8  cylinder 
engine.  The dwell meter was in essence measuring what is know as  the duty 
cycle, which is the percentage of time current is flowing  during a cycle.  ie. 
if on 6 cylinder engine the dwell is 30 degrees then  the duty cycle is 30 
divided by 60 or 50%.  Back then they called it dwell  and measured it in 
degrees.
 
Getting back to the future, or should I say the present, our CIS fuel  
injection system relies on a signal from the Lambda ECU that tells the frequency  
valve to repeatedly open and close, which controls the pressures in the fuel  
distributor and in the end, the amount of fuel sprayed out of the fuel  
injectors.  This is how it keeps a constant air fuel ratio over the varied  amount of 
air being sucked into the engine at different loads and speeds.
 
The Lambda ECU is constantly sending a signal to the frequency valve, at 70  
cycles per second, per page D:04:08 in the DeLorean Workshop Manual.  In  
order to change the fuel pressures, the frequency valve depends on the duty  cycle 
of this signal powering it, meaning during what percentage of the signal  
cycle is current flowing to the frequency valve versus 100% of the signal  cycle. 
 If the duty cycle were 100% then the valve would be open all the  time, if 
the duty cycle was 50% then the valve would be open for 50% or half of  the 
time in each of the 70 cycles ever second...
 
So theoretically we need to know the duty cycle in percent not the  dwell in 
degrees, but since dwell meters are easy to come by and duty cycle  meters are 
not, they were nice enough to convert duty cycle to dwell degrees for  us.  
Note that the manual calls this duty cycle / dwell degrees a  pulse ratio, but 
states it as degrees in the specifications.
 
So how does one convert from dwell to duty cycle?  Again it is the  
percentage of the maximum dwell for a particular cylinder setting or scale on  the 
meter.  For instance, the manual states (please rise and turn to  page D:04:15) 
that in normal operation the "Pulse Ratio" should read 35 -  45 degrees.  Now 
what setting and scale should be used for that since 45  degrees on an 8 
cylinder setting would mean the valve is open 100 percent of the  time (45 / (360/8) 
= 1) where as 45 degrees on the 4 cylinder setting would mean  the valve would 
be open during only 50% of each cycle (45 / (360/4) = .5   THUS the setting 
and scale you use is critical.
 
What we really want to measure is duty cycle.  The convenient way is  to use 
a dwell meter set to the proper range.  The DMC Technical Manual  specifies 
setting the dwell meter to the 4 cylinder scale (I have not seen this  important 
piece of info in the workshop manual)  (...and of course you need  to read 
from the 4 cylinder scale as well.) On many dwell meters there is no 4  cylinder 
scale, therefore you need to set it to 8 cylinders and multiply your  reading 
by two.  Now in reality you could use the 6 cylinder setting and  scale but 
then the numbers in the manual would not be the correct ones to use,  so why 
bother...
 
Remember you will be setting the "dwell" to a range as it will be pulsating  
/ varying up and down a bit on a properly warmed up and operating engine.
 
Also very important is to recheck it after you reseal the access hole for  
the 3mm allen as this is a vacuum leak that can change the settings.
 
Does any of this make sense?  Is anyone out there still awake??
 
BTW, Don't do what I did the first time, which was to connect one wire of  my 
dwell meter to the "test point" and ground the other wire. (This is how  
you'd measure dwell on a car with points and is wrong, wrong, wrong for  us.)  The 
other wire actually connects to another terminal in the  diagnostic socket 
which goes to plus 12 volts and not ground...
 
When in doubt, RTFM (Read The F...ing Manual)
 
Dave Delman
D & 6530
 

Message: 15
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 18:27:47 -0800
From: Ryan Wright <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Dwell meter setting??

Dave,

I'm following this procedure:  http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7u0gn/id6.html

I don't know why it says the  use the 4 cylinder setting... My meter
doesn't have such settings. Just a  "dwell" option and no choice of
cylinders.

-Ryan

On 2/4/06,  David Hudgins <painterdave72_at_dml_yahoo.com> wrote:
> Does anyone have a  procedure for setting the dwell meter for the co?? I 
have
> one but it  says to use the setting for a four cylinder??? Why is that??
>  thanks..Dave..and where do most of you all set your co at on the dwell  
meter..
> meaniing what does it read when u are  done???
>
>







Thank  you,

Dave



"Just Say  NO, to the COUCH POTATO!"


To see how go to _www.tvpedaler.com_ (http://www.tvpedaler.com/)   



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 08:34:42 -0800
From: "Grimsrud, Knut S" <knut.s.grimsrud_at_dml_intel.com>
Subject: DMC(Florida) sponsors DCS'06 Millennim Concours

The Millennium Concours would not be possible without the generous
support of the sponsors. I'm pleased to report that DMC (Florida) has
joined as a supporter and sponsor of the Millennium Concours program.

 

Tony and DMC (Florida) is a fantastic addition to the group of sponsors.
He is a past competitor (and winner) of the concours himself, and he
brings first-hand experience as a competitor to the coordination team.

 

With the additional resources DMC (Florida) brings to the program, the
Millennium Concours will be further improved and you can expect an even
better Millennium Concours event at DCS'06.

 

The following are the generous sponsors that provide the resources
necessary to conduct the Millennium Concours:

            DMC (Texas)

            P.J. Grady

            DeLorean Motor Center

            DMC (Florida)

 

There are still a few openings left in the competition, so if the
competitive spirit stirs in you I encourage you to sign up now so we can
expand the number of slots if necessary in finalizing the arrangements.

 

Good luck competitors.

 

Knut

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 17:04:24 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Dwell meter setting?? More than you might want to know... ? too LONG?

Or you can do like many would and just find the scale that gives you
the readings you are looking for! Of course having a depth of
knowledge gives you the understanding of what you are REALLY  doing.
Hopefullly the people on the DML are all the better for getting a full
explanation  of this procedure. It is realively arcane and most
mechanics wouldn't even know the theory behind it. In fact many today
wouldn't be able to set points with a feeler gauge OR a dwell meter! 
The dwell meter will get you close enough to pass emissions in just
about any State in the country if you are patient. A tiny adjustment
on the mixture screw (or ANY vacuum leak) can have a large effect. The
Workshop Manual gives you the steady-state readings you should see,
get them (in "open loop") and then in "closed loop" you can set the
mixture. "Closed Loop" is where the O2 sensor is running the mixture
and changing it in response to the Oxygen level in the exhaust. My
thanks to DD for a very good and relatively simple explanation of a
difficult topic.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757




--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, doctorDHD_at_dml_... wrote:
>
>  
>  
> Guys, 
>  
> The  "dwell meter" was originally designed to measure the time, in 
degrees 
> that the "points" of the ignition system stayed (dwelled) closed.  
That is 
> dependant on how many cylinders the engine has.  If it was a 4 
cylinder engine 
> the maximum dwell would be 360 degrees divided by 4 (cylinders) 
which is 90 
> degrees, meaning that if the points were closed all the time (ie. 
100 percent 
> of the time) they would be closed for 90 degrees for each  cylinder.
 Thus for 
> a six cylinder car the maximum would be 360 divided by  6  = 60
degrees and 
>







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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 11:07:51 -0600
From: "Joseph Kuchan" <josephkuchan_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Need vacuum measurments

That sounds good at that rpm. What is it at idle? Does your car have a turbo 
or is it normally aspirated?

Joe Kuchan


>From: "delorean6584" <carburateur100gaz_at_dml_msn.com>
>Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [DML] Need vacuum measurments
>Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 22:31:43 -0000
>
>i just want to check if there is any vacuum leaks on my car, mine
>reads 18,5 hg at 1700 rpm anyone can take their vacuum for me ?
>
>thanks
>yan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
>moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
>For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>
>To search the archives or view files, log in at 
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>






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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 10:26:48 -0800
From: Ryan Wright <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: My first tune up

Joe,

Thank you for the response.

I tested the wire for the O2 sensor and it was good. I replaced the
sensor just for kicks. No luck; same problem. I also verified the ECU
is getting power. Now what?

-Ryan

On 2/4/06, Joseph Kuchan <josephkuchan_at_dml_hotmail.com> wrote:
> The car may be as warm as its going to get, but the way the ECU detects that
> is when it sees a signal from the lambda probe. (O2 sensor) Make sure it is
> working and connected. If it hasn't been replaced in a long time you may
> want to just replace it so you don't have to wonder if it is working. Make
> sure it is connected to the ecu. There is a "quick disconnect" style
> connector in the single lead that goes from the lambda probe through the
> wheel well area into the box behind the drivers seat where the ECU is
> located. Make sure that has not become disconnected, which is a common
> issue. If the ECU does not see a signal from the lambda probe that could be
> your problem.
>
> Joe Kuchan
>
>
> >From: Ryan Wright <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com>
> >Reply-To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> >To: DMCForum_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [DML] My first tune up
> >Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:12:30 -0800
> >
> >I've pulled the transmission twice but have yet to perform a tune-up
> >beyond replacing the plugs, etc. That's lame, so now I'm attempting to
> >perform my first real tune up on my DeLorean.
> >
> >I just need some help. :-)
> >
> >The diagnostic socket now works (thanks to Dave Delman; connection
> >underneath was unplugged & damaged as you suggested). Dwell meter
> >shows a steady position when cold, as it should. Unfortunately, once
> >the car warms up, the dwell meter still shows a steady position. I
> >tried running a ground from the ECU to the engine block as suggested
> >here (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7u0gn/id6.html), but it didn't
> >help. I'm fairly certain I can hear the frequency valve buzzing.
> >
> >Now what do I do?
> >
> >Second piece of information to this puzzle: I started this quest
> >because of a lean condition causing a "glug glug" noise on
> >deceleration. Working blind since my dwell meter wasn't swinging back
> >and forth, I dialed the mixture up 1/4 of a turn anyway. This fixed
> >(!) the glug glug noise, but unfortunately caused the engine to begin
> >surging up and down fairly significantly at idle - so I put the
> >mixture back where it was.
> >
> >From here, I have no idea where to go. Any advice would be greatly
> >appreciated.
> >
> >-Ryan
> >
> >
> >To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> >moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> >
> >For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
> >
> >To search the archives or view files, log in at
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
>
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
>
> To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 12:06:10 -0800
From: Ryan Wright <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: My first tune up: Making progress, not quite there yet

I've made some progress: Turns out the full throttle switch is bad and
shorts to ground regardless. That's why the lambda system wasn't
taking control of anything. I've disconnected the switch for now.

Current issues:

1. With the full throttle switch disconnected, the dwell meter drops
way down - not quite to zero, but close. It still doesn't pulse. It
does sit on center when cold and goes down low when warm.

2. The frequency valve quits buzzing when I disconnect the full
throttle switch! So the lambda unit isn't doing anything with the FV.
If I plug the switch back in (make the system thing it's at WOT) the
FV starts buzzing again.

3. Where the full throttle switch plugs into the wiring harness, there
is place for two connections. One is for the switch - what's the other
for? Mine is disconnected.

Now what do I do?

-Ryan


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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 21:46:06 -0000
From: "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Discovered the root cause of my starting problem (I think)

OK, today I decided to check the condition of my fuel injectors 
because I just realized that I had not ruled them out as the problem. 
Once I had gotten all six of them out I jumped the fuel pump ad went 
back to test them out. When I depressed the air meter nothing 
happened! One injector was spitting out a little but that was it! The 
fuel pump was running but no pressure to the injectors! As I played 
around with the air meter (after the pump had been running for about a 
minuet) I heard a pop, and then could audibly hear fuel flowing 
through the distributor. I then depressed the air meter and fuel 
sprayed from the injectors!

This must be the cause of my starting issue. Possibly the primary 
pressure regulator is sticking? Is there a way to fix this? I have a 
CIS pressure tester on order but I am pretty sure its going to tell me 
that my primary pressure is low until this pop happens. 

I know that my Fuel Accumulator is bad and leaking back into the fuel 
tank return line but I figured that the pump over delivered so this 
would not be a problem. Where do I start?

Nathan










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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 14:15:10 -0800
From: Ryan Wright <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: My first tune up: Making progress, not quite there yet

OK, the Lambda system is working now. I dialed it in to an average
reading of 45 on my dwell meter - it swings from ~35 to ~55 give or
take.

Problem: I had to dial the co even leaner than it already was to get
the lambda system right. This was surprising to me, as I'd thought the
"glug glug" noise was due to a lean condition and that proper
operation would be found at a richer setting. Now, the "glug glug" is
slightly worse than it was.

Now what?! I'm going to take a break for awhile... :)

-Ryan

On 2/5/06, Ryan Wright <ryanpwright_at_dml_gmail.com> wrote:
> I've made some progress: Turns out the full throttle switch is bad and
> shorts to ground regardless. That's why the lambda system wasn't
> taking control of anything. I've disconnected the switch for now.
>
> Current issues:
>
> 1. With the full throttle switch disconnected, the dwell meter drops
> way down - not quite to zero, but close. It still doesn't pulse. It
> does sit on center when cold and goes down low when warm.
>
> 2. The frequency valve quits buzzing when I disconnect the full
> throttle switch! So the lambda unit isn't doing anything with the FV.
> If I plug the switch back in (make the system thing it's at WOT) the
> FV starts buzzing again.
>
> 3. Where the full throttle switch plugs into the wiring harness, there
> is place for two connections. One is for the switch - what's the other
> for? Mine is disconnected.
>
> Now what do I do?
>
> -Ryan
>


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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 19:34:34 EST
From: Soma576_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Help. I mixed up my heater core hoses!

 
 
In a message dated 2/4/2006 3:10:35 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
supermatty_at_dml_psu.edu writes:

This is  stupid, I know, but I pulled off the heater core hoses where
they connect  to the metal lines on the frame, and now I forget which
pipe goes to the  water pump, and which one goes to the heater valve.
The way I'm  distinguishing between the metal lines right now is that
there's a top  pipe, and a bottom pipe (as they sit along the frame).
Can anyone  help?  

thanks,

Matt
#1604


>>
Matt,
 
I had the same problem but Warren at DMCH told me they put the lower hose  to 
the water pump and upper hose to the heater valve.  However, according  to 
him it really doesn't matter which one goes where, they will still  work.
 
Andy
 
Fargo, ND  
1982 DeLorean DMC12 VIN 11596



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 15:16:09 -0800 (PST)
From: tom kasmer <tkasmer_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Mileage


what engine/transmission do you have and what average
mileage have you gotten? I am interested in several 
different owners responding for both manual and
automatic. Also, what is a good 0-60 time for both 5
speed and automatic?  Tom Kasmer

--- tuxr <tuxdarby_at_dml_msn.com> wrote:

> When looking at my (unfortunately large) notebook
> full of repair and 
> parts receipts, I noticed I put 20,000 miles on the
> car for 2005 
> (about 8 months-rest was down time).  Do I win??? 
> Any more high 
> milers out there?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To address comments privately to the moderating
> team, please address:
> moderators_at_dml_dmcnews.com
> 
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for
> sale see www.dmcnews.com
> 
> To search the archives or view files, log in at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>     dmcnews-unsubscribe_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 





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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 01:27:26 -0000
From: "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: I would gladly pay you Tuesday for a 125k loan today

I saw this car in person at their shop. It sure is sweet!

Nathan
2277
--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "John" <silversurfer_at_dml_...> wrote:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/8cby7
>










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