From: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 4:24 PM
To: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 3164

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: customized DeLorean
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com

2. Re: JZD's grave
From: "Lawrence Lormand" <lawrencesr_at_dml_netzero.net>

3. Re: Head mods
From: "captain_hydrogen" <captainhydrogen_at_dml_cox.net>

4. Appologies Re: Big Boyz Toys / AutoToYaz
From: "captain_hydrogen" <captainhydrogen_at_dml_cox.net>

5. any info on vin 657
From: "paulo242526" <paulo242526_at_dml_gmail.com>

6. Re: DeLorean History
From: "Jeremy Popp" <trentjus_at_dml_yahoo.com>

7. "Bauerle Brackets" ( was: - Re: Checked my TABs.... AARG!!)
From: Shannon Yocom <ssdelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>

8. NCT tires
From: rick abarca <stangboy70us_at_dml_yahoo.com>

9. Re: customized DeLorean
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>

10. Boxed lower control arms?
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>

11. Re: Passenger side water leak
From: "usndmc" <usndmc_at_dml_gmail.com>

12. Re: customized DeLorean
From: "M. P. Olans" <mpolans_at_dml_creeper.com>

13. TAB Success!!
From: "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_yahoo.com>

14. Re: Acceleration issue
From: "Marv Hein" <marvhein_at_dml_hotmail.com>

15. Re: K-Jetronic Fuel Injection
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_optonline.net>

16. Front Ride Height Intentions - Documented Proof
From: Shannon Yocom <ssdelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>

17. Re: customized DeLorean
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>

18. Re: Front Ride Height Intentions - Documented Proof
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net

19. Re: TAB Success!!
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net

20. Re: Re: Head mods
From: <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>

21. Re: Front Ride Height Intentions - Documented Proof
From: Martin Gutkowski - DMC Ltd <martin_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>

22. Re: Front Ride Height Intentions - Documented Proof
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_optonline.net>

23. RE: Front Ride Height Intentions - Documented Proof
From: "willinot" <willinot_at_dml_ukonline.co.uk>

24. Re: Re: DeLorean History
From: lordshill_at_dml_aol.com

25. Re: Front Ride Height Intentions - Documented Proof
From: Shannon Yocom <ssdelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>





Message: 1
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 22:44:33 EST
From: kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: customized DeLorean

Steve Liggett sold his car about 6 months ago It was a very quick car
 
Ken


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 04:13:30 -0000
From: "Lawrence Lormand" <lawrencesr_at_dml_netzero.net>
Subject: Re: JZD's grave

If I'm Not mistaking the Cementary rules have changed in this area & don't allow monuments in the newer areas now & you can only have a flat stone for the head stone. I think the stone is really tastefull. 
Lawrence
00538m,00915a,1024m,4873a 


In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "spaceace3113" <spaceace3113_at_dml_...> wrote:
>
>  I thought that was very cool and respectful. I have relatives in 
> Michigan..Im gonna visit the grave when Im up there
>









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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 04:22:31 -0000
From: "captain_hydrogen" <captainhydrogen_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: Re: Head mods

Dave is right about there being many more performance options in Europe. Martin Gutkowski at www.delorean.co.uk may be able to guide you in what you are looking for and provide a source for better engine internals.

As far as porting and polishing heads, I know that just about any machine shop can do it, there is one here in Mesa, AZ that says they can do it for about $300, but if you want a source that you are more familiar with, then you may want to contact:

(listed in alphabetical order by vendor name)

www.deloreanmotorcenter.com - Don Steger has a very cool and crazy cam shaft, but also had head work done. His car is using the performance exhaust from www.delorean.com and pulls solidly from idle to over 7,000 rpm.

www.specialtauto.com - John Hervey has some performance options including porting and polishing of heads via core exchange. He is also selling DeLorean specific headers that any muffler shop can add cats, muffler, and tips to.

In my own research using the current parts catalog for Mahle, the original piston manufacturer for the PRV-6 engines of the erra that our engines were made, I found the following in terms of PRV-6 Volvo
equivalent:

Mahle is the original manufacturer for the PRV-6 piston/sleeve/ring assembly and provided:

North American Market Volvo B28F Mahle part # 037 62 90 with 8.8:1 compression ratio.

European Market Volvo B28E Mahle part # 037 60 90 with 9.5:1 compression ratio.

Both version utilize the same crank and rods.

What I suggest doing is getting the piston/sleeve/ring assembly for the B28E, Mahle part # 037 60 90. Utlize John Hervey's head porting exchange program. Get Don Steger's crazy cam (also an exhange piece). 
Then get the exhaust system of your choice.

www.specialtauto.com (not sure where on the web site the headers are, but they are available right now with ceramic coating.)

www.delorean.com/pexhaust.asp (tried and tested, not sure if it is stainless or ceramic)

www.stainless-exhaust.com/discuss.htm (please contact Rob Grady
(www.pjgrady.com) to order and with issues concerning which level of exhaust tone to recommend, 'cause this system is LOUD!!!)

There is a custom exhaust system in the AZ-D with shorty headers designed and developed Club Mechanic - Ryan Gould. It is currently in use on Daniel Fox's EFI converted DeLorean.

With the above mentioned mods you would have a free-breathing engine with 9.5:1 compression ratio and a hot rod cam that idles a little rough, but screams when you hit the "GO" pedal.

Just my $0.02.

Thank you,
Ben Feguson
Arizona DeLorean Club, Car Cruise Director - VIN 10365

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_...>
wrote:
>
> Because of the way the PRV engine was manufactured there is not a 
> whole lot to be gained by porting and polishing. It is not built
like
> a traditional American motor with mismatched ports, rough castings, 
> protuding flashing, etc. That said, it can't hurt either, just don't 
> expect much. You cannot increase displacement by just changing 
> pistons. That would involve "boring and/or stroking". Boring is 
> another way of saying increase the diameter of the cylinders (which 
> does mean changing the pistons) and stroking means changing the 
> crankshaft for more piston travel. Boring and stroking the PRV is
not
> easy in the US, we do not have easy acess to the parts. This engine 
> was a lot more popular in Europe. You would have to guess what parts 
> to try. It could take a lot of trial-and-error. DMCH did this and
they
> call it their "Stage II" crate engine. On the outside it looks
pretty
> stock except for the exhaust. It does produce more power than stock 
> but not a whole lot more. This is a great upgrade if you have to 
> replace a motor anyway (because you melted it from a failed coolant 
> system for instance).
> David Teitelbaum
> vin 10757
> 
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Steve Brodsky" <ASNAKEINTX_at_dml_> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone have any experience/advise regarding head
polishing/porting to 
> > get a little better performance? How about some larger
displacement 
> > pistons?
> >
>









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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 04:46:10 -0000
From: "captain_hydrogen" <captainhydrogen_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: Appologies Re: Big Boyz Toys / AutoToYaz

Gary,

Big Boyz Toyz customer service and timeliness in shipping and ordering SUCKS Big Boyz Toyz and I do appologize for not warning you about their sluggish response time. I bought Momo Hub Adaptor 2401 and my quick release on eBay for much less than any other aftermarket vendor could provide. It was only the steering wheel that Big Boyz Toyz beat the eBay price by somewhere between $20 and $30. The NETAMI version of the MOMO Millenium EVO Steering Wheel is almost always available on eBay for less than $90. (example: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NETAMI-
LEATHER-STEERING-WHEEL-NISSAN-240SX-300ZX-
180SX_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33704QQitemZ8047182687QQrdZ1)

I have received a lot of complements on my steering wheel and will be posting an article on www.az-d.org concerning what mods are necessary to be made to the Momo Hub Adaptor so that your turn signals will work right. For a horrible picture of me and my bloated BBQ-rib over-eating head with my new personnalized plate and steering wheel in hand standing in front of my restoration project, go to: http://www.az- d.org/wwfIIIbio.html (my eyes are not usually that squinty nor do I usually have such a retarded expression, but I obviously haven't missed too many meals).

Thank you,
Ben Ferguson
Arizona DeLorean Club, Car Cruise Director - VIN 10365

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "tuxr" <tuxdarby_at_dml_...> wrote:
>
> Just wanted to let everyone know my experience with a vendor 
> (recommended to me from an AZ-D member - not his fault though - he
had 
> no control over it).  I purchased a steering wheel and adapter hub
for 
> a Delorean on 2/26.  Still haven't got my order as of today.  Sent 
> them an e-mail, no response.  Called them, got put on hold forever.
> Was asked by the recording if I wanted to leave a message, I tried, 
> was told the mailbox was full.  Of course my credit card has been 
> charged.  To top it off, I checked my order status online, which said 
> it was shipped, but not all of the order.  Even if the pony express 
> they use ends up getting it to me, who wants a steering wheel without 
> an adapter hub???  Or who wants an adapter hub without the steering 
> wheel???  Just my experience, maybe yours is different.
>








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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 14:04:45 -0000
From: "paulo242526" <paulo242526_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: any info on vin 657

Hi All, my name is Paul O'Malley and I live in Ireland. Some Delorean nuts from Ireland and the UK will know me. Last year I bought the burnt out Delorean vin 657 and am now looking for any info from the USA on prior owners and any history on the vehicle as I have no vehicle doc's at the moment and plan to register the vehicle here soon.If anyone has a open Car Fax account a search would be great Thanks very much guys.Paul.







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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 13:39:36 -0000
From: "Jeremy Popp" <trentjus_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: DeLorean History

I just thought I would chime in in reguards to some of this.  I helped Ken this weekend and the display cases are looking fantastic... I was able to preview some historic video footage & Ken showed me the Johnny Carson SS display piece (the poster size display that tells about the car) which gets me excited. I also had a chance to see the uncashed check that Ken is refering to and see some of the other documentation, which to a Delorean enthusiast is just priceless.  That 1 check tells alot of history and sheds some light on what was really happening during that time. Hope to see you all there.

Jeremy Popp


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, kKoncelik_at_dml_... wrote:
>
> Well for you DeLorean history buffs I was able to go through a
fraction of  
> the stuff we found about the daily operations of the DeLorean
Motor  Company.
>  
> In it are original pencil notes taken during meetings and some of
the lists  
> created of the defects in the cars and some of the fixes. 
>  
> We have as we mentioned some indication that John actually paid
some of his  
> US employees out of his own account. 
>  
> We have found canceled and in one case an  un cashed check from
John  to an 
> employee and there are some very interesting details that go with
it but  you 
> will have to come to the show to learn about it.
>  
> I believe there are close to 5000 documents in this collection and
since we  
> got it so late we will pull out some of them for Chicago as they
pertain to 
> John  and the company and leave the rest for a future show.
>  
> This stuff is really cool
>  
> The more we look the more we are finding.  
>  
> Ken
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>








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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:08:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Shannon Yocom <ssdelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: "Bauerle Brackets" ( was: - Re: Checked my TABs.... AARG!!)

Here is a link to the "Bauerle Brackets" from when they were previously discussed on the list.
http://www.ohiodeloreans.com/Bauerle_Brackets.html

From what Dave has told me & what I have experienced they do not interfere with trailing arms movement. The bushings on the bracket end allow it to move. I am currently working on my car and can take more pictures if needed. Especially from the other direction not shown in the pictures above (from the wheel looking back at the bolt). Just let me know and I will post them.


> From: "Dave Bauerle" <dave.bauerle1_at_dml_ > snip<  The kits did work and I 
>know that there are still DMC's running them.
>snip<

In a few weeks my car will be at Bauerle Automotive to check the rear toe-in & camber settings. Again if any are interested how this system has held up after 93,000 miles, I can have Dave check the TA bolts and brackets & post his findings to the list. Just let me know if your interested. 

( before I get emails telling me the rear camber cannot be adjusted, I'm installing adjustable lower control arms )

Shannon Y
16506 (Bauerle Bracket Equipped)

-------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 08:23:51 -0800 (PST)
   From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Checked my TABs.... AARG!!

I have looked at the Bauerle kit...  

Any discussion on if this kit limits the movement of the trailing arm?  I seems to me if the end of the TAB is held solid (in the bracket), then the arm itself cannot move the way it is intended.


--- Harold McElraft <hmcelraft_at_dml_aol.com> wrote:

> If you are still concerned you can install Bauerle's safety support 
> kit - if he is still makes it (cost I don't remember
> - which means
<SNIP>

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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:37:24 -0800 (PST)
From: rick abarca <stangboy70us_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: NCT tires

I am selling the rear NCT tires from my Delorean. 
They are in absolutely perfect condition and can send
as many pics as you want (car has only 15K miles on it
and has ALWAYS been garaged).  Name your price. 

Rick
17160

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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 08:57:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: customized DeLorean

You may want to find Darryl Tinnerstet's Chevy powered
DeLorean.  I had the pleasure of driving this car when
I was in the area a few years back.  IMHO, the gearing
was not great for the supercharged Chevy but that can
be fixed with some custom gears from Europe.

I think Darryl sold the car.  Not sure who has it now.

You could build your own too..  

If your pockets are deep, You can make an offer on
1860 or 6068.  :)

--- Marvin <marv_at_dml_printeddrinkware.com> wrote:

> May be (pending a sale) in the market for  "a new to
> me" unusual DeLorean.
> Will be my 4th.
> Would really prefer Chev powered - with
> supercharger.
> Nitrous would be a good addition.
> Ok, if painted - depends on the finish.
> Will consider a reasonably priced, customized


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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 08:44:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Boxed lower control arms?

Can you provide details on this?

--- chris_at_dml_internets.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
<SNIP>
> of the most important saftey upgrades. I also boxed
> in the lower control arms to add more strength as



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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 17:11:05 -0000
From: "usndmc" <usndmc_at_dml_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Passenger side water leak

David,

Thanks for the reply. I do indeed plan to start redoing the RTV 
around the car after I get this squared away. Better preventative 
than needed. As for the A/C drain, I did clean this out recently 
when I had to replace the blower motor, and yes you are right there 
was a bunch of junk in there. 

However the leak I'm trying to track down now is on the right wall, 
closest to the door edge. If you were to sit in the passenger seat 
with the door open, and run your hand along the front of the 
dashboard on the right edge, at the bottom of the dashboard, below 
the door switch, is where the water is coming from. Right where the 
bottom right front corner of the dashboard meets the fiberglass 
wall. It comes straight down from there, barely on the inside of the 
fiberglass wall. I have to have the door sill carpet piece pulled 
back, with the vinyl part that wraps the edges pulled back too, to 
see it. The way I found these leaks was having the door open, and 
pouring water from a cup into the area between the inner and outer 
seals at the top front, behind the windshield. As the water ran and 
drained down the forward pillar those points would leak. However, it 
also leaks from there with the seals in place and door closed, 
because after sealing the other 2 leaks I closed everything up and 
left the car, and it has rained numerous times since then, and it 
has leaked every time it's rained. Hopefully one of you all has seen 
this problem before, I really would hate to have to pull out the 
dashboard to find out where the water is coming from. Again any and 
all help is greaty appreciated! Thanks!

Dave
#5968


--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_...> 
wrote:
>
> Make sure the drain for the A/C is not blocked. Since you say you 
are
> leaving the car outdoors tree junk is probably getting in there and
> blocking up the drain. You can access it by removing the plastic 
grill
> in front of the windscreen and use a hose to suck as much of the 
gunk
> out as you can. The other way to get there is to remove the fan 
motor
> and go in that way. Do it both ways. You can also remove the front
> right wheel and suck on the drain hose with a shop vac. You may 
have
> to stick a wire in the hose to really clean it up. One of the
> disadvantages to having to leave the car outside. If you see the 
RTV
> is not sealing well you should remove it everywhere and redo it all
> over the car. Make sure to do around the door seals in between the
> inner and outer seals by the hinges. Check the hood stops and RTV 
them
> too.
> David Teitelbaum
> vin 10757
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "usndmc" <usndmc_at_dml_> wrote:
> >
> > My car is a daily driver and almost always parked outdoors, so 
it 
> > has seen it's share of the elements in the 2 years I've had it. 
> > Normally I have no problems with rain. However last week I found 
the 
> > passenger floor flooded with water. I removed the carpeting and 
the 
> > seat and have cleaned and dried them. I found 3 leaks that have 
> > simulatenously sprung up in the same area. The first was the 
lower 
> > bolt of the two near the "front recess panel area" and the 
second 
> > was the bottom right corner of that "panel" right next to those 
two 
> > bolts, as pictured on page 8 of Service Bulletin 33 concerning 
water 
> > l
>









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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 17:01:19 -0000
From: "M. P. Olans" <mpolans_at_dml_creeper.com>
Subject: Re: customized DeLorean

Hi Marv,
     Chevy powered you say?  Well, I am working on just that.  I was
hoping to have it in Pheasant Run but my bell housing guy was slower
than I had hoped.  However, when all is said and done I will be
putting together a kit for the do-it-yourselfers out there so all they
will need is their own crate or home-built engine.  However, we will
also be offering a full-on installation here in AZ.  I am working with
a reputable company for the wiring harness and I found through Fiero
channels an experienced GM computer tuner that can custom tune the
computer to our specifications.  I'll have more details in Chicago. 
Stop by the AZ-D booth for more information.

Matt
VIN 16816

--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Marvin" <marv_at_dml_...> wrote:
>
> May be (pending a sale) in the market for  "a new to me" unusual
DeLorean.
> Will be my 4th.
> Would really prefer Chev powered - with supercharger.
> Nitrous would be a good addition.
> Ok, if painted - depends on the finish.
> Will consider a reasonably priced, customized DeLorean.
> Hello, Ron!
> Cannot afford Curtis' car - but would love it!!!
> 




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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 19:49:00 -0000
From: "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: TAB Success!!

Hello everyone,

I thought I would update my TAB situation. After finding that one 
side was missing all the shims I decided it would be prudent to 
replace both bolts.

Took about 1 and 1/2 hours to complete the task. I did not have to 
cut any bolts and nothing was rusted together. I had ordered new 
bushings but it turns out mine look great so I guess I will return 
them. The bolts needed a little convincing to come out, I just 
unscrewed them all the way out or the trailing arm. Turns out both 
bolts are bent slightly, perhaps a degree or two. Was that a good 
move reusing the bushings? I flipped over the washers because one 
side was indented, the other was fresh so I figure this is OK. 

All in all I would rate this job a 3 out of 10 if nothing needs 
cutting, no other parts need removing and nothing is rusted 
together. (A tuneup is WAY harder) I put the car up on stands to 
replace the bolts and then backed it up onto my ramps to torque them 
to 55lbs. 

For the bolt that was missing the shims I separated the arm away 
from the frame (with the old bolt still in) and measured how many of 
my new shims would fit between the arm and the washer. Crude yes, 
and an alignment is in my future but I figured with shims so thick I 
really can't go wrong. (I know ill catch flack for this!) 

Dan- if you are reading this I will be coming down for an alignment 
soon!

Nathan
2277



2277









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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 16:56:59 -0000
From: "Marv Hein" <marvhein_at_dml_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Acceleration issue

I think what you are describing happened with my car.  Fairly 
regularly, the first time I really "gave it gas," it would 
hesitate.  It never stalled, but there was definitely an issue with 
power.  After that first hesitation, it would be fine the rest of 
the trip. This was all within the first minute of driving.

Turned out I had a severely clogged air filter.  As a new owner, I 
hadn't checked it. Once I changed the filter, the problem virtually 
disappeared. I can't recall the last time I noticed this hesitation 
and the car has had incredibly better performance ever since.

Just a thought... if it's your problem, it's cheap and easy to fix.  
Depending on your preferences, filters are readily available through 
the vendors, even through NAPA stores.

Marv
#10820
AZ-D
 
--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" <dmcburn75_at_dml_...> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
> 
> I notice that SOMETIMES when I start my car from cold I have a lag 
in
> acceleration resembling a misfire. This only lasts for about 30
> seconds. I recently replaced the original fuel accumulator and 
about 2
> months ago I noticed a few grains of dirt in the fuel filler that 
more
> than likely made in into the tank despite my best efforts to clean 
it.
> Would this cold acceleration problem indicate I need to change my 
fuel
> filter? I'm thinking maybe some of this dirt and parts of the bad 
fuel
> accumulator diaphragm have made it into the filter. I know the car 
is
> hungrier for fuel when cold, so maybe this is a good place to 
start...
> Any thoughts? Thanks!
> 
> Dan
>










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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 14:39:53 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_optonline.net>
Subject: Re: K-Jetronic Fuel Injection

This is a good general reference for K-Jet but in the Delorean
application there are some subtle changes. I agree it is good
background materiel but it cannot be used to troubleshoot or adjust
the system on a Delorean. The Workshop Manual gives a very good
explanation of the K-jet on our cars. Bosch also prints books and
manuals on the Jetronic family of fuel systems for those interested in
the more technical aspects. It is amazing what you can find on the
Internet. How did we ever get by without it? BTW you can find the
banjo bolts at all the major vendors, Volvo dealers, and junkyards.
Replace the copper washer/gaskets and don't overtighten the banjo
bolts (that is how you break them).
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757 




--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Bernie" <bmanderville_at_dml_...> wrote:
>
> All,
> 
> Today I was looking around for banjo bolts for the DeLorean fuel
> distributor, and ran acroos this page.  A very good read about our
> fuel system.
> 
> http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/tech/fuel_injection/k_jetronic.shtml
> 
> Bernie
>








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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 09:22:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Shannon Yocom <ssdelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Front Ride Height Intentions - Documented Proof

As previously discussed about the "nose high" look of stock DeLoreans and the
"intended ride height"... I have run across some physical proof that the nose
high look was NOT the intentions of the DeLorean Motor Company. See an
inter-office memo from C. R. Brown at the link below.

http://www.ohiodeloreans.com/ss/DMCRideHeight.jpg

If you see pictures of the test mule you can see the front of the car with the
front tires in the wheelwells. I hope someone over there in the UK who is
attending the Lotus 06 event after Eurofest will ask some of the Lotus people
about what they actually created when developing the DeLorean's suspension. Did
Lotus design the nose high or a lowered suspension? Was it the supplier of the
springs? Did the DeLorean Motor Company revert to higher springs due to time &
cost? 

If someone at the Lotus 06 gathering could also ask them about what Robert heard
at an Open House event...

>quote<
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 20:29:20 -0000
   From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: Re: Ride height.

I'm rakcing my brain right now to figure out who told me this... But I
did hear it _at_dml_ the Open House event. It went down like this...

Colin Chapman was no fan of the DMC-12, and resented the fact that he
had to take on the engineering contract, because Lotus needed the
cash. So Chapman wasn't thrilled that after his people worked so hard
on the DMC-12, that it handled BETTER than *his* Esprit on the test
track _at_dml_ Hethel. To be outdone by a care that he already resented
didn't please him.

So Chapman decided to screw up the handling of the DMC-12 on purpose
with longer, sub-quality springs. Chapman just told JZD that the car
handled very well with these springs. And while the car did look goofy
with the nose up in the air, these springs were cheap, and would
increase the company's bottom line. Which is pretty important when
you're hurting for cash, because production had not yet started up. So
the change wasn't that hard to get De Lorean to agree to.

In fact, who knows if DeLorean even got a chance to drive the test
car(s) with the intended springs that the Lotus engineers designed. If
so, he may very well never have let the change happen.

I too have heard over the years that the change was due to new DOT
regulations. But no one has EVER been able to cite the specific
regulation that would have affected this. Sure, there was a regulation
that Reagan repealled that required car manufacturers to install 15mph
bumpers. But never anything about bumper height.

-Robert>end quote<



Shannon Y
16506

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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 10:58:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: customized DeLorean

What mods did this car have?

--- kKoncelik_at_dml_aol.com wrote:

> Steve Liggett sold his car about 6 months ago
> It was a very quick car
>  
> Ken
>

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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 19:07:15 +0000
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: Front Ride Height Intentions - Documented Proof

They did it to meet US headlamp positioning requirements.  The lights would 
have been out of spec without raising the front end.  The Esprit did not 
have this problem, as it has pop-up headlamps that raise to an acceptable
height.

--
Mike


-------------- Original message from Shannon Yocom <ssdelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>: -------------- 


> As previously discussed about the "nose high" look of stock DeLoreans and the 
> "intended ride height"... I have run across some physical proof that the nose 
> high look was NOT the intentions of the DeLorean Motor Company. See an 
> inter-office memo from C. R. Brown at the link below. 
> 
> http://www.ohiodeloreans.com/ss/DMCRideHeight.jpg 
> 
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 19
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 19:11:11 +0000
From: mike.griese_at_dml_worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: TAB Success!!

I would have replaced them.  Rubber loses elasticity over time and you 
had the parts on hand.  

I haven't done the bushings on my DeLorean yet (I'm waaaay over due), but 
there was a noticeable improvement in handling when I redid the bushings on 
my Esprit.  

--
Mike


-------------- Original message from "valleyrat12" <valleyrat12_at_dml_yahoo.com>: -------------- 


> Hello everyone, 
> 
> I thought I would update my TAB situation. After finding that one 
> side was missing all the shims I decided it would be prudent to 
> replace both bolts. 
> 
> Took about 1 and 1/2 hours to complete the task. 




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 20
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 14:02:07 -0600
From: <delornut_at_dml_peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Head mods

Simply bringing heads or cams to just any machine shop might do more harm than good. For example stock Ford 302 heads  flow better as cam lift goes from a stock lift of .480 to .500 but any lift beyond that will cause a performance drop.Experiance with Ford performance modification would tell you what to do with the heads to overcome that. Someone with no Ford experiance may do something generic that would kill performance. A few years back Ford paid for a group of us 
to attend a crash NASCAR engine building course taught by Mark Vieau who owns a NACAR engine building company and supplies engines to several race teams. They've been running similar engines for years but they're still learning how to get a little more out of them. ( and yes, still learning new ways to cheat ) I don't claim to retain all that was covered in a very short time but I did learn a few things that convinced me radical engine tuning like cam changes and head modifications can do more harm than good without the proper experiance. One rule of thumb I remember is that exhaust flow 
should equal aprox 75% of intake flow. In other words some degree of back pressure enhances engine performance. Experience grows with trial and error. Different engine designs react differently to certain modifications. I'm sure that DMCH, for example, didn't simply send the heads out to be ported and polished. I'd guess the shop they went to did some extensive testing on a flow bench and it possibly took a few tries to achieve the best balance of performance and streetability. Most of us aren't in a position to play with more than one engine or more than one pair of cylinder heads. In the long run it's cheaper to go to the shops that have done the trial and error and offer a final product, for example DMCH's stage II engines or Don Steger's cams.

Bruce Benson

>> --- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, "Steve Brodsky" <ASNAKEINTX_at_dml_> wrote:
>> >
>> > Anyone have any experience/advise regarding head
> polishing/porting to
>> > get a little better performance? How about some larger
> displacement
>> > pistons?
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 21
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 20:57:37 +0000
From: Martin Gutkowski - DMC Ltd <martin_at_dml_delorean.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Front Ride Height Intentions - Documented Proof

This is not unusual behaviour for Lotus. The Vauxhall VX220 is basically 
an Elise underneath yet has a *slightly* different suspension setup and 
doesn't handle as well as an Elise.... Guess what the difference is..... 
go on..... bet you can't... :-)

(rear springs)

Martin

Shannon Yocom wrote:

>If someone at the Lotus 06 gathering could also ask them about what Robert heard
>at an Open House event...
>
>  
>
>>quote<
>>    
>>
>I'm rakcing my brain right now to figure out who told me this... But I
>did hear it _at_dml_ the Open House event. It went down like this...
>
>Colin Chapman was no fan of the DMC-12, and resented the fact that he
>had to take on the engineering contract, because Lotus needed the
>cash. So Chapman wasn't thrilled that after his people worked so hard
>on the DMC-12, that it handled BETTER than *his* Esprit on the test
>track _at_dml_ Hethel. To be outdone by a care that he already resented
>didn't please him.
>  
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 22
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 20:47:41 -0000
From: "David Teitelbaum" <jtrealty_at_dml_optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Front Ride Height Intentions - Documented Proof

This is not exactly a "smoking gun". It does offer some insight into
what one engineer thought about the ride height as far as the "look"
was concerned. The explanation that it was cheaper to use cheaper
springs that made the car ride high doesn't sound right. In the
quantities that the  springs would have been ordered it would not have
cost any extra to have the springs reduced a coil, in fact they
probably could have saved a small amount! Setting ride height is a
complicated process which affects several aspects of the suspension.
It is not simply a matter of changing a spring. You do not set the
ride height based on looks. If that was the issue some of it could
have been addressed by changing the fender or the front spoiler. I
have also heard that the front was raised because of the DOT. If that
is the case you would think it would be easy to find the paper trail
that caused the height to be raised. Instead we see very early that
the ride height was high and that someone considered lowering it. It
would now seem that the ride height is where the designers wanted it
to be for whatever reason. By lowering the ride height you are
reducing suspension travel increasing the potential to "bottom out".
You are also reducing the ground clearance increasing the chance of
catching the frame or suspension on obsticles in the road like raised
manholes, deep potholes, driveways, etc.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757



--- In dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com, Shannon Yocom <ssdelorean_at_dml_...> wrote:
>
> As previously discussed about the "nose high" look of stock
DeLoreans and the
> "intended ride height"... I have run across some physical proof that
the nose
> high look was NOT the intentions of the DeLorean Motor Company. See an
> inter-office memo from C. R. Brown at the link below.
> 
> http://www.ohiodeloreans.com/ss/DMCRideHeight.jpg
> 







________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 23
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 20:19:35 -0000
From: "willinot" <willinot_at_dml_ukonline.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Front Ride Height Intentions - Documented Proof

Hi

Does anyone know of somewhere that the rest of that document is available on
line?  I would like to be able to read the blurred out section too.

Paul.



-----Original Message-----
From: dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com [mailto:dmcnews_at_dml_yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Shannon Yocom
Sent: 20 March 2006 17:23
To: DMC - DML News Post'n
Subject: [DML] Front Ride Height Intentions - Documented Proof

As previously discussed about the "nose high" look of stock DeLoreans and
the
"intended ride height"... I have run across some physical proof that the
nose
high look was NOT the intentions of the DeLorean Motor Company. See an
inter-office memo from C. R. Brown at the link below.

http://www.ohiodeloreans.com/ss/DMCRideHeight.jpg

If you see pictures of the test mule you can see the front of the car with
the
front tires in the wheelwells. I hope someone over there in the UK who is
attending the Lotus 06 event after Eurofest will ask some of the Lotus
people
about what they actually created when developing the DeLorean's suspension.
Did
Lotus design the nose high or a lowered suspension? Was it the supplier of
the
springs? Did the DeLorean Motor Company revert to higher springs due to time
&
cost? 

If someone at the Lotus 06 gathering could also ask them about what Robert
heard
at an Open House event...

>quote<
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 20:29:20 -0000
   From: "therealdmcvegas" <dmcvegas_at_dml_cox.net>
Subject: Re: Ride height.

I'm rakcing my brain right now to figure out who told me this... But I
did hear it _at_dml_ the Open House event. It went down like this...

Colin Chapman was no fan of the DMC-12, and resented the fact that he
had to take on the engineering contract, because Lotus needed the
cash. So Chapman wasn't thrilled that after his people worked so hard
on the DMC-12, that it handled BETTER than *his* Esprit on the test
track _at_dml_ Hethel. To be outdone by a care that he already resented
didn't please him.

So Chapman decided to screw up the handling of the DMC-12 on purpose
with longer, sub-quality springs. Chapman just told JZD that the car
handled very well with these springs. And while the car did look goofy
with the nose up in the air, these springs were cheap, and would
increase the company's bottom line. Which is pretty important when
you're hurting for cash, because production had not yet started up. So
the change wasn't that hard to get De Lorean to agree to.

In fact, who knows if DeLorean even got a chance to drive the test
car(s) with the intended springs that the Lotus engineers designed. If
so, he may very well never have let the change happen.

I too have heard over the years that the change was due to new DOT
regulations. But no one has EVER been able to cite the specific
regulation that would have affected this. Sure, there was a regulation
that Reagan repealled that required car manufacturers to install 15mph
bumpers. But never anything about bumper height.

-Robert>end quote<



Shannon Y
16506

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Message: 24
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 16:04:07 EST
From: lordshill_at_dml_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: DeLorean History

I'm a history buff anyway and I'd love to see what is in the  collection.  
I'm really interested in seeing the problems listed for the  early VINs as I 
have one.  I'm just wondering if between the original owner  and now me if we got 
all the problems fixed.
 
Roy
0893


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message: 25
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 12:55:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Shannon Yocom <ssdelorean_at_dml_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Front Ride Height Intentions - Documented Proof

I have heard that too. Among other reasons like: 
1. bumper height requirements
2. headlight height requirements
3. cheep springs were used to save money
4. they just screwed up & made up the reasons in #1 & #2 above
(http://www.projectvixen.com/dmcforum-archive/msg26772.html)
5. better handling that the Lotus so Chaplan mucked it up (like mentioned in my
prior email and here: http://www.projectvixen.com/dmcnews-archive/msg25299.html
and more here
http://www.projectvixen.com/dmcnews-archive/msg25173.html )

What I want to know may be trivial to some but I just want to know the truth as
the "why" the height was raised. And this is the first physical proof I have seen
that the intent was for the car to be lower than the stock high nose.

Has anyone seen any proof as to the "why"?

I hope this doesn't screw up you concours competitors. Are the rules based on how
they actually left the factory or how they should have left the factory? Because
it is obviously not the creators intent to be nose high.

Shannon Y
16506


------------------

From: mike.griese_at_dml_...
Date: Mon Mar 20, 2006  2:07 pm
Subject: Re: [DML] Front Ride Height Intentions - Documented Proof 	

They did it to meet US headlamp positioning requirements.  The lights would
have been out of spec without raising the front end.  The Esprit did not
have this problem, as it has pop-up headlamps that raise to an acceptable
height.

--
Mike

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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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