Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 2:45 AM
Subject: [DML] Digest Number 3304

There are 6 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: No Start
From: David Teitelbaum

2. Re: Optima Batteries?

3. Re: Door Solenoids and lock modules.

4. Re: Brake Pads - Compatble

5. Re: Stainless Frame Features
From: John Dore

6. Re: Vacuum actuator cross ref? (was Question about a/c and hot water
From: at88mph


1. Re: No Start
Posted by: "David Teitelbaum" jtrealtywebspannet
Date: Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:41 pm (PDT)

Make sure you are getting spark at the spark plugs. You may have a bad impulse coil or a bad connection to the ECU.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757

--- In, Chris Shepherd <chrisau79_at_dml_...> wrote:
> Check all the plugs under the panel behind the drivers seat. Make
sure they are seated well.
> heylacy <heylacy_at_dml_...> wrote: Hi, Fuel pump runs when jumped
at 30-87. But engine won't start. Good
> rpm relay. Good voltage at resisters. Plenty of gas. Changed out coil.
> Now once in a while it will start right up as if nothing is wrong and
> runs like new. Lately it just does't start. Any help in what to look
> into next would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Messages in this topic (10)

2. Re: Optima Batteries?
Posted by: "" waernstnj
Date: Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:46 pm (PDT)

In a message dated 6/24/2006 10:40:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, writes:

The guy at the parts counter at Advance told me he gets a lot of them back that are only a year to a year and a half old. Have others experienced the same issues with these batteries?>> Yes, I'm on my third too, though this one is the yellow top and seems to be holding its own, though my courtesy lights are always off via a switch from Joe Lore. They'll "adjust" the price for a replacement, but it still ain't cheap.

Wayne A. Ernst
vin 11174
Bridgeton, NJ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)

3. Re: Door Solenoids and lock modules.
Posted by: "" waernstnj
Date: Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:46 pm (PDT)

In a message dated 6/2/2006 2:16:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, writes:

Now if you did have a malfunction with the locks, and lets say one was either repeatedly trying to lock it self. Or even was stuck in the lock position, it wouldn't be a difficult predicament to get out of. Simply unlock the other door.>>

No, it's not as simple as opening the other door. I know first hand. If your door link rods are not properly adjusted, you can sometimes force the door to nearly unlock, while the wiper switch is fighting to lock re-lock them. Then when you release the key- Boing- it relocks. The cure is to get your doors properly adjusted. Short term, disconnect the door lock module so it won't fight you. Then you can at least unlock the "good" door. BTW, the LOCK rods are pretty simple to adjust correctly. For one thing, they're not spring loaded like the latch rods. It's the darn LATCH rods that are hard- and the latch rods will make the locks unable to open, if they're wound too tight OR too loose. So you think your LOCK rods are messed up, but it's your latches. Then, after they work great, you reinstall your armrest and inside door handle and lock switch and arggh- now it won't work again. The unadjustable links from the inner handle and lock switch threw off your alignments. Oh yeah, they're fun.
So how come none of our door gurus has written up a definitive treatment on troubleshooting the doors?

Wayne A. Ernst
vin 11174
Bridgeton, NJ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (29)

4. Re: Brake Pads - Compatble
Posted by: "" soma576
Date: Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:48 pm (PDT)

Hi Mitch,

Luckily having to track down aftermarket brake pads isn't an issue with
DeLoreans. Just go to _www.pjgrady.com_ ( and get the
pad sets with top quality pad material, anti-squeel shims, anti-rattle hardware, and no-squeel liquid compound - all at a very reasonable price. There is no way you will find all these extras at autozone or wherever you are looking, and if you find pads, they will not come with all the DeLorean-specific shims and stuff.

At any rate, there will be a lot less headaches.


In a message dated 6/24/2006 9:44:41 A.M. Central Standard Time, writes:

Anyone know of compatible brake pads for the front and rear brakes?
None of our local parts stores have the Delorean pads, but there are bound to be some others that will fit.

Thank you,

Fargo, ND
1982 DeLorean DMC12 VIN 11596

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)

5. Re: Stainless Frame Features
Posted by: "John Dore" dmcjohn
Date: Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:50 pm (PDT)

Hi Bryan,

Todd asked me how much it cost to restore and galvanise my frame, speficially compared to the cost of buying a stainless frame, so I answered his question. I'll quote his question here:

>"I'm wondering how galvanizing would compare to doing a stainless frame
>(from the cost standpoint) and never worrying about it again."

I believe, after reading my post again, that I gave Todd an honest answer, based on my experiences and research over the past 18 months.
After researching the cost involved with the stainless option (with your help), and having first hand experience with the costs involved with the repair and galvanising method, I conclude that (at least from a cost standpoint) the galvanising makes much more sense. It's understandable I suppose that you were not happy with my reply as I didn't recommend the stainless option, but I can't understand why you would be actually offended by anything I said?

I'm baffled by some of your comments, but I'll reply to each of them...

You said:

>Three paragraphs from John's posting talk about loss of design features
>in the Stainless Steel frame. John states that "In my opinion, it
>doesn't take much effort to keep these little design features...". Let
>me be very clear that John's opinion in this matter reflects his lack
>of understanding for the fabrication process. John should have realized
>what he was saying when typing the words "stamped design". If it were
>our desire to produce the stainless frames using a stamped design, at
>the quantities we are producing, the cost per frame would easily exceed
>$90,000 per frame.
>If we were producing thousands of frames, the cost would be more

My reply:

How do you conclude that my opinion reflects my lack of understanding of the fabrication process? (I'm not offended by the way, just baffled!). Incidentially, it doesn't say much for your understanding of fabrication methods if you calculate that having an original looking chassis made would cost $90,000.

In any parts of my restoration where I paid someone else to do some work for me, I was present during all the work, and took an active part in the work. If you would take a little time to read the restoration log on my website, you will see how each of the "stamped features" I referred to which are missing on the stainless frame (and you got so offended over) were newly fabricated for my frame.
Specifically, the plate under the engine crossmember with the stamped ribs in it, and the plate to which the steering mounts are welded to.
On the newly fabricated plate which the steering mounts are welded to, the pressed holes through which you tighten the steering rack, and the lip at the edge of this plate (in the center of it) were recreated. My website describes how each of these pieces were made, and also shows photographs. There are even photographs of the custom tools and dies used during the fabrication of these pieces.

Sean O'Brien (the guy who did the welding for me) took a look at the original plate from the front frame extension, with the raised edges and pressed in holes. He took a few measurements, and 15 minutes later had a tool made on his lathe which he used to perfectly recreate these "pressed in" holes using a press. From start to finish, Sean went from a flat plate of metal to a perfectly shaped and formed original looking plate to go under the steering mounts, in
1 hour, including time spent creating the tool on his lathe. This is proven through pictures on my website...

My friend Aaron Dixon created a set of dies on his lathe to recreate (using a press) the stamped features on the lower engine cradle plate, without any difficulty. This is also proven through pictures on my website - it's not rocket science...

Now that both of these tools are made, either Sean or Aaron could make as many more plates as they want. I'm sure they would be willing to make you a set of these tools at a very reasonable price (less than $90,000 anyway), or you're welcome to download the pictures of the tools from the website and ask someone who knows how to use a lathe to make you a set of them.

You seem to agree with me regarding strengthening the original chassis in places, although you make the point that the stainless frame with overall thicker steel would be stronger and stiffer again, which I'm sure is true. But, I'm very happy with the way my DeLorean with its original frame handles.

You made 6 points on the benefits of the stainless frame. I think points 1, 2, 5 are good points. I've never heard of the issue with the front shock towers you made in point 3, nor have I ever noticed this problem with my car. Point 4 is only useful for anyone who regularly switches their cars from automatic to manual. Point 6 could easily be done to an existing DeLorean frame.

I do think the Stainless Steel frame is a great product, but its not perfect. I even praise it during my frame restoration log on my website! But, the context in which I was asked to compare the stainless frame to galvanising was in terms of cost, and in that sense, the galvanising option is far better value than the stainless frame. It equals the stainless frame in terms of eliminating rust, and it retains the original look of the DeLorean frame. The stainless frame might be slightly stronger than my galvanised and strengthened frame, but I doubt this would be noticeable in every day driving.
Maybe on a race track it would make a difference...

You also said the following:

>As a a final note, it is important to mention that John's financial
>account of the amount of money required for the "galvanizing approach"
>is lacking some serious analysis. John's posting would lead you to
>believe that complete frame repair and galvanizing cost only $1,200 US.
>In order for this to be true, you would have to assume that the tools
>and supplies he used did not have any cost.
>Further, you would have to assume that John's or your time and
>expertise is worth NOTHING. I know a significant amount of time was
>spent on this frame restoration. If you lack the ability to perform
>this work yourself, you will have to pay someone to do it. The big
>problem with this approach is that you have no idea, up front, what
>each individual frame will require.

My reply:

My financial account of my frame repairs is not lacking serious analysis, it's a fact that the frame restoration cost me about $1200.
OK, I did buy a paintbrush to apply the nitromors paint stripper, and a few tins of nitromors (at 7 euros each), which I did not account for. Other than that, I spent 20 Euros on a heat gun, and 30 euros (I
think) on an angle grinder. So, my cost estimate might be out by as much as 80 euros (less than 100 US dollars).

Of course, there was my time also. Although this restoration took nearly 18 months, if you read the website you will see that most of this time was not spent working on the project. I'd do 3 days here, then do nothing for 8 months due to not having time. Then I'd do another day or 2, and not go near it again for another few weeks.

The actual time spent stripping the epoxy, cutting old metal out, fabricating new metal, and welding the new metal back in was not really that much. Most of the time was wasted trying to figure out how to remove the epoxy. Now that I know how to do it, I could do it much faster the next time. Anyway, my time is my own, and I enjoyed the work whenever I had time to do it. Todd sounds like he is the kind of guy who doesn't mind doing his own work where possible - he is already doing spot repairs to his chassis with POR-15, so he could save himself up to $9000 by repairing his own chassis and galvanising it, rather than purchasing one of your Stainless Steel versions.

Finally, you said:

>Last Fall I worked with John to determine shipping and other costs to
>get a Stainless Frame sent to him. I felt that we had positive
>interaction so I am confused about this attack on my product and the
>effort to produce it.

Yes, of course I remember all this, and I remember emailing you when I finally decided not to purchase a stainless frame from you. I explained that while I might be willing to pay $8000, paying $15,000 including shipping and taxes is another matter entirely. I apologised for wasting some of your time researching the shipping cost to Ireland, and I said I hoped to meet you at Eurofest. I felt it was a positive interaction also.

It is not an attack - I have not said anything untrue or unreasonable about your stainless steel chassis. I don't feel that I owe you any favours, so when someone asks for my opinion on what is the best option, I will be honest with them, and continue to recommend galvanising.

I would be very interested in seeing a reply from you regarding the projected cost of $90,000 for a frame incorporating the design features I commented on being missing from your stainless steel frames. I'm sure others would be interested in seeing a justification for this price also, now that my website shows how easy it is to incorporate these features.

John Dore, Ireland

--- In, Bryan Pearce <bryanp_at_dml_...> wrote:
> Hello All:
> Great to meet a bunch of you at DCS 2006!
> I feel compelled to respond to, what seems to be, an attack on our
> Stainless Steel frame solution for the DeLorean and the effort
that was required to make this product available to the DeLorean
> community. While I applaud the effort put forth by John Dore on
his restoration, I am offended by his comments. John fails to realize the amount of time and effort required to build a stainless steel frame for our cars.

Messages in this topic (8)

6. Re: Vacuum actuator cross ref? (was Question about a/c and hot water
Posted by: "at88mph" at88mph_1999
Date: Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:51 pm (PDT)

Sorry, I made a mistake on that part. Its actually pn 101752. I've been looking at this
stuff so long, its kind of blended together! :) I superguled the one I have back together however.

Basically, what I've done so far is: (system is R12):

1. Replaced the compressor/accumulator/orifice tube from DMC Houston
2. Checked that the fan blower motor and also the cooling fans are running ok and in the right direction
3. Put gauges on the high/low side and they are reading correctly per the manual
4. Made sure the right amount of freon is in the system w/ no leaks
5. The compressor is cycling like it should.

The only things I haven't replaced are the hoses (don't think they're an issue b/c of no leaks) the condenser and the evaporator core.
The best I can get it down to is 59 degrees running down the road. Taking all this into consideration, which part would be the better to buy first?
Now, the a/c shop did say I had a lot of oil in the system, but they flushed most of it out. They said, in their opinion, the next step would
be to remove the evaporator core and see what it looks like (see if there is any oil left in it and let it drain out)

Thanks again to all of you for your help!


Messages in this topic (4)

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